The global warming prophets and propagandists, who enjoy living in style on other people’s money, gathered last month in the plush resort of Cancun, Mexico, where January temperatures usually hover around 80 degrees. God must have a sense of humor because Cancun was hit by its coldest temperature in a hundred years.The first day of the conference featured an address from Mexico’s President Felipe Calderon, who spoke with much concern about global warming and the damage that humans are perpetrating on the planet.
He cited the deaths of 60 people in Mexico because of weather extremes, but didn’t mention Mexico’s 22,000 deaths caused by the illegal drug trade.
U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon announced that “we need to fundamentally transform the global economy, based on low-carbon, clean-energy resources.” Barack Obama’s announced goal of fundamentally transforming the United States has morphed into transforming the world.
This 16th annual conference of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC), called COP 16 (Conference of the Parties 16), attracted some 20,000 delegates from 194 countries.
It had little to do with any science about climate change and everything to do with trying to get the United States and other industrialized nations to redistribute their wealth to the poorer nations under the supervision of eager United Nations bureaucrats.
Read the rest of this editorial at Investors Business Daily.
Dig this from NASA:
“The Sun is the primary forcing of Earth’s climate system. Sunlight warms our world. Sunlight drives atmospheric and oceanic circulation patterns. Sunlight powers the process of photosynthesis that plants need to grow. Sunlight causes convection which carries warmth and water vapor up into the sky where clouds form and bring rain. In short, the Sun drives almost every aspect of our world’s climate system and makes possible life as we know it.
Earth’s orbit around and orientation toward the Sun change over spans of many thousands of years. In turn, these changing “orbital mechanics” force climate to change because they change where and how much sunlight reaches Earth. (Please see for more details.) Thus, changing Earth’s exposure to sunlight forces climate to change. According to scientists’ models of Earth’s orbit and orientation toward the Sun indicate that our world should be just beginning to enter a new period of cooling — perhaps the next ice age.”
What, what, what????? “Earth’s orbit and orientation toward the Sun indicate that our world should be just beginning to enter a new period of cooling — perhaps the next ice age.”??????
Obviously Jim Hansen did not write this, nor was he consulted appearantly.
I think what you’re referring to is the tilting of the earths axis (MilankoviÄ‡ cycle). The axial position of the earth in relation to the sun affects the amount of energy the earth receives from the sun(the poles start to receive sunlight almost exclusively which causes the polar caps to become equatorial ice, the earths landmass becomes snow/icecovered while the north and south poles receive sunlight. In winter months (northern hemisphere) the southpole receives sunlight 24hrs a day (this is due to the earths axis of rotation pointing directly towards the sun), this causes Antarctica to melt (evaporate infact) condensation takes place and the rest of the earth receives snow (all landmass not receiving sunlight becomes covered with snow).
We are not entering one of these extremes at this time (it’ll be a long time before we enter the next ice age), but mini iceages arise according to solar output (last one happened a couple of hundred years ago), when solar output is at a maximum the earths surface (which is 70% water) receives an energy increase, this causes an increase in water vapor (which has a greenhousing effect), when solar output is at a minimum the earths surface receives less energy. High solar output is the result of storms. Storms disperse energy. Storms regulate the earths climate (solar maximum (action) = storms (reaction)).
A mini iceage could have two contributing factors, solar minimum which as an effect keeps mean temperatures low (meaning all snow accumulation takes a longer time to melt), solar maximum is the other, and this ones harder to comprehend (it is somewhat counterintuitive), an increased solar output causes more water vapor to be produced as a result in the hemisphere away from the sun (winter) a higher accumulation of snow takes place, as a result (because more slow takes longer to melt than less snow) a mini ice age exists. (on a hot day take an icecube and place your hand above it, the icecube will melt but directly above the ice the air is cold (multiply this on a grand scale and you realize that even though the upper atmosphere will be warmer during the solar maximum the atmosphere directly above the ice is cold).
Edit*(because more snow takes longer to melt than less snow)
Thank you Mr. science!!! I was not saying that, nor was I advocating it. I was merely pointing out that NASA said it. My position is that the Sun drives the climate, not CO2.
They’re both attributing factors, but you’re correct, the sun is the more influential of the two.
I am not a scientist. I am an appliance technician. My main specialty is heating, air conditioning, and refrigeration. I have an AAS degree in HVAC&R. That said, I just want to point out how ridiculous your above statement is.
First of all the Milankovitch cycle is not the tilting of the Earth’s axis. The Milankovtch cycle is a calculation of the cycles of obliquity, eccentricity, and precession.
“Astronomer Milutin Milankovitch developed the mathematical formulas upon which these orbital variations are based. He hypothesized that when some parts of the cyclic variations are combined and occur at the same time, they are responsible for major changes to the earth’s climate (even ice ages). Milankovitch estimated climatic fluctuations over the last 450,000 years and described cold and warm periods. Though he did his work in the first half of the 20th century, Milankovich’s results weren’t proven until the 1970s.”
“On a 42,000 year cycle, the earth wobbles and the angle of the axis, with respect to the plane of revolution around the sun, varies between 22.1Â° and 24.5Â°.”
What you said above is impossible!!! Nobody has ever calculated that in the past, or the future will the Earth’s axis point directly at the Sun!!!! Ever!!!!!
Also, what you are talking about as far as variations in solar output are not sustained by factual reality.
“Total solar output is now measured to vary (over the last three 11-year sunspot cycles) by approximately 0.1% or about 1.3 W/mÂ² peak-to-trough during the 11 year sunspot cycle.”
A difference of 0.1% in solar irradiance is not going to cause the effects you describe. Now if you want to talk about the Sun’s major effect on the climate you have to talk about the variations in the solar wind, and the cosmic ray flux affecting cloud formation.
Also, storms do not regulate the Earth’s climate. The Oceans do.
Need I go on? I’m going to stop here. Needless to say, you have some deep misunderstandings, and misconceptions of the climate system, and how it works. Or are you testing us? Throwing out a bunch of bullcrap to see if anyone notices? I hope that’s what you’re doing.
I’m not testing any one. The process I’ve outlined is the process responsible, I’ve purposefully gave the explanation in the manner I did to aid in visualization, the tilt of the earth determines the area that receives the majority of solar energy. Describing the variance with actual values (couple of degree variation) leaves it hard to understand why the change in tilt carries with it a such a grand scale change in climate.
As for the solar max and mins (the 11 year cycle) the values you’ve provided are the ones on record. The sun rotates (it is plasma, the fourth state of matter), the sun rotates and as it does the full rotation is experienced at different rates at different latitudes. The sun’s surface can be seen getting wound tighter and tighter and tighter at which point it bursts (coronal mass ejection), after this the cycle enters a new phase, the sun reaches a new equilibrium and the solar surface begins the winding process once again. After the highest solar outburst the lowest energy state of the sun is present. When the sun ejects a lot of mass (which is energy, e=mcc), the sun is in a low energy state (solar min). This is the process responsible for mini iceages. Two driving causes, a high release of energy which produces a lot of water vapor (clouds), followed by low energy release (resulting in slowed melting of snow).
For the purpose of scientific calculation the most accurate values are required, for the purpose of visualization it is sometimes helpful to visualize extreme, sometimes hypothetical, scenarios.
And never say never.
That is very condescending. To begin talking to us as though we would not understand what a few degrees difference in the rotational axis of the planet would affect is starting off on the wrong foot, to say the least.
And you are wrong about the Sun as well. It is not the surface that gets wound up from differences in regoinal rotational velocity, it is the magnetic field. That is what creates solar flares and CME’s. Again you are exibiting fundamental misunderstandings of a process.
So, exactly what effect does the Sun have on the Earth? Do the scientists that study this even know?
“Due to technological barriers and a limited amount of data, however, scientistâ€™s understanding of the Sun-Earth system continues to be incomplete. They are unable to predict fluctuations in TSI due to 11-year and long-term solar cycles, and scientists do not yet have accurate enough measurements to determine the trend from one cycle to the next with sufficient precision. In fact, the TSI is currently known to within an accuracy of a few Watts per square meter, which is greater than the entire fluctuation of the TSI over one 11-year solar cycle. Additionally, scientists havenâ€™t pinned down what proportion of solar energy is absorbed by the land or atmosphere. They also do not have complete measurements of the energy variation for the distinct wavelengths of incoming solar radiation. These different wavelengths affect the various components of the Earthâ€™s atmosphere, land, and ocean in different ways.”
So, They don’t know what proportion of solar energy is absorbed by the land or atmosphere. But you do? And you know exactly what the effect is on evaporation, sublimation, and cloud formation?
I’m sorry, you come across as someone who wants to sound like they know what they are talking about, but you are falling quite short of that goal.
Neil, as we both know it is all about money. Global warming/climate change is a vessel used to gather dollars by scaring the public. Best scheme I’ve seen in my lifetime. People are starting to wake up. Read this article this a.m. Typical BS.
It is about money Paul. But I think it is not all about the money, it’s about punishing the US too. The UN is the driving force behind all of this without a doubt. But what, or who I should say, is the UN? Well, that is an easy one. The UN is an organization that is full of people that hate, fear, or are jealous of the US. Why else would China be exempt from measures imposed on the US, when they have exceeded us as the world’s largest producer of so called greenhouse gas emissions? It was never about the environment, or saving mother Erf. It has always been about taking the US down a peg or two….. and getting a slice or two of the pie.
The best scheme you seen? Really? What about the too big to fail banks??? All those creeps are getting even bigger bonuses – and it’s OUR money!!! If the climate starts to cool, all bets are off, right? The $ for one doesn’t come close to the other (AGW vs. Too big to fail).
To quote Charlie Brown…”Good Grief!”
Paranoid about the Fed Reserve too? I am. And guess what? They AREN’T the Govt. They are a private enterprise. Guess that’s why you guys think they are just fine, no problem, nothing to worry about…am I right?
Wrong. The Federal Reserve has assumed unconstitutional powers over our currency and they’ve run amok. The Federal Reserve is indeed something to worry about. They’re destroying the value of our money.
Good- we agree on something! Interesting that they aren’t actually a part of the US Govt. huh? No wonder we don’t hear much complaining about them from the Right… too bad, it might help if you guys started making noise about things other than Liberals and the evils of the Liberal controlled (false) Govt. and the Liberal (also false) media.
You’ve got it wrong, buddy. “End the Fed” and “Audit the Fed” are initiatives of the Tea Party movement, Ron Paulites (Paul wrote the book, “End the Fed”), the Republican Liberty Caucus and Libertarians. Stopping the unconstitutional power of the Fed is an objective of the right. Time to wakey-wakey, Rob N’ Hood. Venture away from the Daily Kos and Huffington Post once in a while and you’ll see you have a lot of paradigms backwards. http://money.cnn.com/2010/11/15/news/economy/fed_attack/index.htm
Thank you Dan, we needed that.
Wrong- It is (according to you and I’m taking your word for it cuz I’m such a nice guy) the Libertarians and a splinter group of Republicans who oppose the Fed Reserve. The main body of the Republicans do NOT (neither do the Democrats). That was and is my point. Even when we agree on something you people have to come out negative. Why is that? What I have stated is CORRECT and I challenge you to refudiate it. If you cannot, please for once give me some credit for having at least a curiosity beyond so-called liberal sources. Also, I doubt your average Tea Bagger doesn’t spend much time reading Liberal based material. So why come out so hypocritical about that and make statements about me you cannot ever validate?
Sorry for the double negative above. Typo, of course. As I’ve stated before THERE ARE AND COULD BE MANY AREAS WHERE LIBERTARIANS AND LIBERALS AGREE ON THINGS. But instead of working with us on those things you people are all about the zero sum game. No cooperation, n o compromise. THAT is a recipe for NADA, and also for the continued strangle hold the one-party two party system we have that is killing us and destroying this country.
That is what frustrates me the most and why I’m here. But you people appear to be hopeless.
More than half a century ago, the radical sociologist C. Wright Mills cogently described the workings of this burgeoning “power elite” in terms that in retrospect seem like a feat of gifted insight. Mills depicted a ruling class of military, corporate, and political figures who perpetuate their stations by rendering the citizenry effectively powerless and subject to ready manipulation. Part of the inspiration for his seminal work was a 1942 book called Behemoth that chronicled the Nazis’ rise to power, which Mills later said provided him with the “tools to grasp and analyze the entire total structure and as a warning of what could happen in a modern capitalist democracy.”
The basic thesis of The Power Elite is that a highly unified and centralized elite class has monopolized power, rendered democracy a charade, and coopted the ideologies of both conservatism and liberalism to serve the preordained continuance of their rule. Mills’ insights echoed a prior account of these trends by John F. Hylan, New York City mayor, in 1922:
“The real menace of our republic is this invisible government which like a giant octopus sprawls its slimy length over city, State and nation. Like the octopus of real life it operates under cover of a self-created screen. It seizes in its long and powerful tentacles our executive officers, our legislative bodies, our schools, our courts, our newspapers and every agency created for the public protection. It squirms in the jaws of darkness and thus is the better able to clutch the reins of government, secure enactment of the legislation favorable to corrupt business, violate the law with impunity, smother the press and reach into the courts.
“To depart from mere generalizations, let me say that at the head of this octopus are the Rockefeller-Standard Oil interests and a small group of powerful banking houses generally referred to as the international bankers. The little coterie of powerful international bankers virtually run the United States Government for their own selfish purposes. They practically control both parties, write political platforms, make catspaws of party leaders, use the leading men of private organizations and resort to every device to place in nomination for high public office only such candidates as will be amenable to the dictates of corrupt big business. They connive at centralization of government on the theory that a small group of hand-picked, privately controlled individuals in power can be more easily handled than a larger group among whom there will most likely be men sincerely interested in public welfare.
“These international bankers and Rockefeller-Standard Oil interests control the majority of newspapers and magazines in this country. They use the columns of these papers to club into submission or drive out of office public officials who refuse to do the bidding of the powerful corrupt cliques which compose the invisible government. It operates under cover of a self-created screen [and] seizes our executive officers, legislative bodies, schools, courts, newspapers and every agency created for the public protection.”
You are absolutely right here Rob N Hood. The sad fact of the matter: any elitist coming across such a claim laughs at the sight of it. They pay 99 writers to write books on economics industry and such, at which point Mr. C. Wright Mills is overshadowed by volumes of texts stating the exact opposite. His work becomes the minority, his view the view of a mere 1% of views out there, for the elitists it is business as usual. It is funny the luxuries money can afford.
The insightful work done by Mills becomes just another minority view, the elitists are the elitists for a reason, it is not because they control the system, they are the system. The world is their playing field, everyone else is just a pawn in their game.
The sad truth being all this insight you gather Rob N Hood will not change a thing, the only way to change the world is to stop playing the game. People are too afraid to make that move.
How do you stop the game?
Stop going to work. Without pawns the game is a clear board. The elitists are dependent on the population, the only way to put a stop to their rule is to stop complying, that is not easy under an oppressive regime. If you stop working you’ll have bill collectors at your door, police forcing you out of your home, the elite have measures in place to ensure you comply and continue making them rich. Terror. If you do not do what you are told to do your life will be destroyed. The only way to stop this is by everyone making the change together, meaning all the game pieces rejecting the game, without tools of oppression (bankers, police, military, collectors) the oppression stops, and the elites are out of pieces, their power gone.
Where do Afghan al Qaedas get their expensive weapons to carry out their terrorizing attacks from? Who is funding terror?
Borat’s satirical insight had it best: “we support your war of terror mr. Bush”. You terrorize the population and they sign their freedoms away, scare tactics are oppression, they guarantee compliance. This is not to place the blame on W. For all I know he is just another pawn too.
I agree that we all need to wake up and start protesting in ways that work. There’s only a few methods however at our disposal. National labor strikes is one and perhaps the only good one. Stop voting for the corrupt system is another. If even fewer people vote it would illustrate the illegitimacy of the system and the peoples’ disgust.
BUT- America is too brainwashed, comfortable and self-indulged to start doing these things. Eventually however, if things continue the way they have things will become violent, unfortunately, but maybe also the above will happen, and non-violently we can make the changes that are needed to save American democracy.
However, just 1% of the worlds population which is the arbitrary number of rich people is around 70 million people!! And with the money at their disposal they hire an awful lot of clever, competent people to do their bidding. Why is a LOT not enough for them?! They spend an inordinate amount of effort to keep most of the world down below where they don’t even approach having enough? Well, that way most us are busy just getting by and lately running harder just to stay in the same place. It’s not just a small elite anymore like the Royal Families of Europe (Remember the divine right of Kings to rule or the Rockefellers, etc.). The pie has gotten bigger (thanks in no small part to the lowly workers) so there are layers and layers of “macroparasites” now – the merchant kings (e.g. Walton family) – the international bankers, i.e. the progeny of the robber barons – the Information Technology (used to be newspaper and book publishers)- the military-industrial complex with the new layer of the intelligence- security complex. Also here in the US there is the burgeoning judicial -prison complex which is big money for all those folks, including lawyers of course. And many maintain their longevity through families. They seem to have intergenerational plans. Nixon and Kissinger opened up China. It wasn’t just to further isolate China from the USSR.It wasn’t to open up a market of a billion people – it was to gain access to 1/2 billion disciplined, low wage workers who along with computers and automation, jet planes and electronic communications could counteract the unionized workers of the US and Europe. They still need us, “who ya gonna get to do the dirty work when all the slaves are free?” Just watch out when either androids or robots are perfected!! What will they do with all the excess humans?!
Oh no Rob has found a play friend. What did you do Rob call the Socialist party of America for help.
The old Marxist, Left wing class warfare BS.
Lets put it into perspective. Ladies and Gentlemen welcome to the world wide struggle for world domination. In the Right corner we have the Elitist!!!!! in the Left corner we have the Pawn….. The referee tonight is Mr Statist. Lets listen in at center ring. Ref;”Gentlemen let me go over the rules. Mr Pawn donâ€™t come out of your corner The promoter of this event Mr George S. is fixing the rules. Mr Elitist (AKA anyone with money that doesnâ€™t want to do what the Left says) you can only punch yourself and when you get tired and fall down we will let Mr Pawn come out and kick you.” This will be a 15 round fight and the winnings will be distributed to all spectators. We think that will be about $15 per seat thank you for paying the 50$ admission to see this contest.
Move to Grease you to socialist bags of wind. They have stopped working over there and look how great it is. The rest of Europe is on the verge of collapse as well.
I never stated that the course of action was simple. Greece has given us the republic, if they are rejecting the current regime do you not think that there is a good reason behind it?
Once the dust settles Greece will be better than ever and I hope they reform their government in a timely fashion. Capitalism has veered exactly where I was predicting for years it would, it has become the new world fascist regime, a new form of government will emerge, one that all people will be happy with, that and only that will solve the state of things.
I commend the Greeks for having the balls to say ‘no more!’ to their oppressors, this is not an easy thing to do as I’ve mentioned before the powers that are do not relinquish power easily, I am rooting for the people I hope they show the rest of the world what togetherness can accomplish. People, together we are stronger than our oppressors, they are few, we are many!
Greece has been brough to its knees by decades of unchecked government spending, growth and socialism. Now that it’s time to pay the piper and the government can’t afford all the handouts and government bloat, the people are revolting over not getting their freebies anymore.
You’re supporting the point I made whether you’re aware of it or not. Greece was not properly governed this is what drove the revolt. If my government (full of rules I must follow) promised me in return for my good behavior “freebies”, as you refer to them, and then took them away and destroyed my standard of living that I paid for through taxes and compliance I would rightfully be upset as well.
On a side note, how about the 700 billion dollars in “freebies” the bankers stole from the people of the USA, without punishing, the government stepped in and bailed out the thieves. At least the Greeks handed out the proceeds to the people. There are multibillionairs laughing right now at the stupidity of the American people, how about that?
This is why a reform is necessary, the capitalistic system is flawed, I am all for the Greeks bravely stepping into the unknown, calling out for those responsible for the current state they’re in, a new system will come out of this as long as the oppressive regime of the EU doesnt intervene, by bailing out those responsible and saving a system that needs to be abolished.
This isn’t a game of Stratego or Battle Ships. If you could only stop your automatic prejudices and view the world more objectively you’d begin to grow.
“When the right congratulates Obama
for winning, you know he is losing.”
— Robert Kuttner, Huffington Post
Above for Jerk, not V. V, I hope you’re a woman, because I think I love you.
Yet another socialist surfaces. What next? Let’s call him Rob II.
Would you rather an antisocialist?
Why the negative stigma behind socialism I’ll never understand, maybe it is the propaganda instilled in us since birth on what a socialist is, infact I’m quite confused, could you please explain to me what a socialist is mr. Wenum?
I’m anti-socialistic societies period.
With the societies of present day, I must say I agree with you Paul. I’m trying to stay optimistic for the future though, I’m hoping that people will see the faults of today’s socities, not only see the faults, but have the courage to stand up and say no more. We can change the style of government in power today, it’s been done in the past. Utopia is not a fairytale, it is the world of the future, why shouldn’t we be the generation to make that change…and save humanity. Why do so many live in poverty?
If I were a billionaire there would not be a single child dying of hunger in the world, or of some simple curable disease. How do the elite multi billionaires live with themselves knowing that they hold the power to saving all the worlds dying children, and yet they do nothing of the sort.
This is why a reform is necessary, you have actors (multi millionaires) over in Africa helping people survive, while people that are worth 1000 times more, the elite (multi billionaires), doing nothing of the sort. They are inhumane, as a humanitarian I have no love for humans that have the power to help others and yet they choose to do the opposite.
Enough! What a childish view you have. Do you think a billionaire somewhere can just snap his fingers and feed all of the hungry people in the world? Really? Do you have any idea what kind of costs that would involve? Do you have any clue as to how something like that would work? I think you don’t.
First you buy the food. How much food do you buy? how many people are we talking about? 800-900 million? Ok, so how much food to buy to feed them for how long? Once you have determined what kind of food and how much food to buy, you then have to ship it to the hungry people all over the world. And how much would it cost to ship it? Once the food gets to the port, it must be distributed from there by truck, train, or air to the hungry people. But wait! Some places have crooked governments, and-or warlords in control who will seize the food shipments to sell for a profit. So you would have to make it worth their while to allow the food to get to it’s intended recipients. By this point you are talking about many billions of dollars. And I don’t care how much money you have, if you take on and undertaking such as that, you won’t have ANY money before too long. Now I am just talking about feeding all of them one meal. Maybe now you can begin to appreciate just what kind of massive costs would be involved in sustaining such an effort. Even if all of the worlds billoinaires got together and made it happen, they would all be broke in a matter of months. Grow up.
Jerk, would you say it was childish if Jesus said waht V just said? IN fact, if you believe the bible then he did just that… Just sayin’.
Oops, I meant Neil… but if the shoe fits… ha ha
So Neil- let me get this straight…. you say it’s too HARD to do the right things, so why EVEN TRY. Is that accurate????!!!!! How about you Dan, Paul, Hal- want to weigh in here? And remember, Santa (or God) is watching…..
I’m not saying it is hard. I’m saying it is not possible. But I digress.
Do you really want to go down this path? Because if you do the smallest amount of research into the matter you are going to find that the charitable contributions from Republican/Consevative/Capitalists are far grater than they are from Liberal/Progressive/Communists. It’s a fact. Google it!
Could it perhaps be that they have MORE money to give AND that it is BENEFICIAL TO THEM REGARDING TAXES, WRITE OFFS, ETC. ? You see, your thought processes are usually stunted, and this is just another example of that.
You are very good at finding info that matches your beliefs and you seem to have a pretty good mind for science. I remain hopeful that Significant Climate Change doesn’t occur, either way, and I also don’t support Cap and Trade schemes.
There is a big wide world out there full of rich and powerful people who are only in it for themselves. And they aren’t all Liberals/Communists/Socialists. In fact I would argue the oppostie, that most of them are Conservatives or Elite Libertarians, i.e. only concerned about themselves. There is no world-wide conspriacy or any kind of collaboration for Communism. All you need to do is open your eyes and mind to reality- Capitalism, in it’s good and bad forms, has taken over the planet. Not in all countries of course, but most. And while you all gleefuly and prejudicially point to the more Socialistic countries that are failing as proof of something- it is Capitalistic forces that are making the decision for Austerity thus making bad situations even worse. For the good of the country and its people? No. For the good of the Big Banks and investors. And paving the way for Capitalism to replace its Socialism. Capitalism has been winning the hearts and minds of the world through many devious ways, mostly via as stated above. Sometimes thru out-right war, e.g. Iraq and Afghanistan. Vietman. Phillipines. Mexico. The cold war was won and now even Russia is Capitalistic. China is too, slowly but surely without war, cold or hot. So you see? They system you love is winning and will not be stopped until is fails under its own devices. It failed in the USA, big time, and had to be bailed out with TONS of our money. And yet you laugh at smaller weaker countries whose Socialistic systems have failed them. That is hugely hypocritical. You all are so blinded by prejudice that you cannot even recognize the fact that the strongest Capitalistic country the world has ever seen failed and almost took down the world’s capitalistic economies with it. THAT is astonishing to me.
As though Liberals don’t take full advantage of tax write-offs, shelters, and loopholes? Are you kidding? I am not talking about rich people nessecarily either.
“Arthur Brooks, the author of “Who Really Cares,” says that “when you look at the data, it turns out the conservatives give about 30 percent more.” He adds, “And incidentally, conservative-headed families make slightly less money.”
And he says the differences in giving goes beyond money, pointing out that conservatives are 18 percent more likely to donate blood. He says this difference is not about politics, but about the different way conservatives and liberals view government.
“You find that people who believe it’s the government’s job to make incomes more equal, are far less likely to give their money away,” Brooks says. In fact, people who disagree with the statement, “The government has a basic responsibility to take care of the people who can’t take care of themselves,” are 27 percent more likely to give to charity.”
I’m not just making it up. And it’s not about rich people getting a tax break either. So what was it you were saying about a stunted thought process? Well, whatever it was… you can stuff it.
You cannot deny human nature. When you try, through coersion, legislation, etc, it is inevitably disasterous. The utopian visions of socialism and communism are destined to fail because they take the human out of the equasion in the designs. Like it or not, people are primarly motivated by self-interest. No laws or societies can alter that. No school or religion can change it. It’s nature. Any attempt to contravene the laws of nature is inherantly unnatural, anti-human and evil. This is socialism, communism, etc.
The places in the world where starvation and abject poverty are prevalent are communist dictatorships. The people live under horrible oppression. The solution is freedom, of course. Writing checks isn’t going to do anything to improve their conditions. Maybe you could provide meals for a day or a month (assuming the dictators don’t just steal it all) – then what? People need to be free to provide for themselves. That’s where prosperity comes from.
“Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Free a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime.
-Original quote by Jesus, modified by Me.
Well said. Much more succinct than my rant.
Education is the key here Neil, you’re absolutely right. But, money buys fishing rods and hooks.
You’re right Dan, handing money over to regions of the world where dictatorial rule is present is not only ineffective, it could be extremely dangerous. Instead of fixing problems like housing and hunger, the funding could be used in ill ways, like funding wars and WMD construction. Before we can help those nations we must free them from their oppressors. Nature-nurture. Even after liberation the danger is present, after living under a certain system the oppressed dream of one day being the ones to do the oppressing, not do the oppressing but to be the ones in power (oppression is like a hand holding a ball under water, when the oppressor (hand) is removed the ball (oppressee) flies up), after being held under an oppressive regime the people know nothing but the regime itself, upon becoming free it is very likely that the people will revert back to the system they’ve been freed from, but since the dictator is no longer present likely hood of civil war for the position of power is very, very high.
It is very easy to make a mess of things when you go in to fix a system, when you go in to remove a dictator you cannot leave until you teach the people. If you’re going to knock down a government you must see if through its reformation. That’s responsibility.
When there is a broken crankshaft in an engine block the solution is not to take the block apart and take the crankshaft out, that’s only a part of it, you must put a new crankshaft in and put the engine back together. That’s not even enough. Once everything is back together you must see things through, you have to take that car for a test drive to see if things are running well.
Changing a government is not easy (neither is the crankshaft, lol) but when things are broken it must be done. Capitalism today is like a car with a broken crankshaft, the bank bailout in the US was like putting holes in the cars floor turning it into a flintstone mobile. Capitalism is running but not well at all.
Derrrr. The bank bailouts never should have happened. Capitalism would have allowed them (and GM) to fail, enter bankruptcy and emerge leaner or be replaced. Governments propping up failed businesses is a product of socialism.
And you’re reaching others online so you are not antisocial Paul, web discussions are social interactions. If you were antisocial you would not interact with those in your community, local, or in this case, world wide. You are a socialist as you are expressing and debating social issues with others, just like I. An antisocial individual could care less about opinions, actions, or feelings of others unless they directly impacted him. Empathy is lost in the antisocialist, infact most psychiatrists would label the most elites as being antisocial types. They are dangerous to society as a whole.
V- I think what Paul meant is he is anti-Socialism. Not anti-social.
Although I would propose that all or most Libertarians are indeed anti-social. If Paul is that, then he is the other.
If a friend of yours went hunting and he asked you to help him clean a moose, would you;
a) help him clean the moose because he is a friend, or would you;
b) conditionally help him, only give a hand if he agrees to share the kill.
Now hypothetically, lets say that your friend will be unable to hunt for the rest of the season due to an injury he sustained, knowing that his family is depending on every pound of that meat would you help him still, or, would you refuse to help because you’re getting nothing out of it.
As a hunter I think this analogy will help you realize whether you’re a socialist, or, an antisocialist.
(now if your friend was injury free and refused to share the kill he’d be a pretty lousy friend, a user, antisocial himself)
This is a test for a hunter to realize his social stance, social or antisocial
Which would you say you are now Paul?
“This is a test for a hunter” Just that statement shows that you are not. No more point/counter point to an educated idiot. Bait and troll. Hope you are paid well. If you you ever hunted for “food” you would understand. Definite Troll! You waste my time as well as others on this site.
Paul- IT’S AN ALALOGY TO MAKE A POINT …!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For crying out loud!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And Hal- you are the perfect paranoid counter-balance to Paul’s narrow-mindedness (I’m trying to be kind here).
Question: Who is REALLY destroying the US?
Answer: Not who you guys think it is. Open up your God-given brains and think a bit harder will ya?
V you forgot the socialist answer…c) be forced to help your friend under the penalty of a fine or jail or both, to be decided by the moose kill Czar. This example is silly. You are not addressing the style of government, your addressing the personality traits of an individual. The personality traits of a person will not effect the case for global warming, only confuse it. Looking at their goal, the destruction of the US economy appears to be the agenda of the UN whether I am social or anti-social…with a pension for solitude and darkness. I think the idea of comparing a Socialist Government to a Social person is way off base and mean two different things. Regardless of the root word.
What does “V” stand for? I’ve already posted what I think it stands for but Dan has already deleted it. So, don’t say *apid, *acuous, or *oid!!!!!
This is getting interesting to say the least.
Interesting? I don’t know if I’d call it that. Maybe entertaining is a better description. I think it’s funny that we have a new addition to our side in Jerk A. Knot, who is saying a lot of the things I have said over the years, (I think he expresses some things better than I have BTW). And now we have a Rob echo too!!! This just gets better and better!
Agree. At least there is a difference of opinion bar none! The good, bad and ugly. Depends on what side you advocate. Sir Knot, you, Hal and I think alike.
Get a kick out of people that don’t deal in the real world like R Hood and V. I see why we have the social problems in our republic that must be addressed. If not, people with their mindset will set the table with food from other peoples shelves with no regret for the one’s that grew,delivered, packaged, manufactured, sold it and are consumed. (Hopefully for a profit) Ooops, forgot. It’s for the people that are “entitled to it.” Typical socialtist mentality. Have no problem donating to food shelves, helping the needy when in need. Always have and always will. Just have a problem helping people that with a little ambition and work ethic could helps themselves. There is a difference. Been there when I was young. Is it easy? No. Is it rewarding to do it yourself? You damn well betcha!
Rob likes to envoke Jesus a lot, but I think he’s forgotten, or ignored when Jesus said “Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime.” I think the world’s hunger problems will never be solved by just sending food. I believe it can only be solved by changing the conditions that exist which allow hunger to persist. The people who run those countries are responsible for the conditions, not you or me, not American billionaires either. It is the individual country’s leadership, and style of government that is to blame. I am so tired of these leftists who always try to make us feel guilty for the world’s hunger problem. Let’s put the blame where the blame belongs, and work towards changing that.
The answer to the above is to do both, in my opinion. And I don’t evoke Jesus “a lot”, (just a note regarding what is reality)… I like what he stood for and feel sometimes it is appropriate to add Him to the discussion. Also, because I’m sure many of you would claim to be Christian and that then would suggest you are also followers of Jesus. I do not wish to start a quoting-of-Jesus war of words, which would be useless to all. You and I both know (I believe we do anyway) the simple truths of Jesus’ teachings. If you feel uncomfortable with that then I suggest you do some soul-searching. Or not.
You also claim “we” are trying to make you feel guilty. Not exactly the case. But you “appear” to be doing it also, directed at Liberals. So please don’t be so hypocritical, ok?
Simple question. Are you talking to yourself when you talk to V, or whoever he/she is or if he/she exists? If not, You must both be genetically related. Must be in the liberal genes. Mine are Wrangler.
Simple answer. Genetics is (almost) everything. And I’ve always prefered Levis.
Well Well Well. I take a little time off and the Wacoâ€™s think thy own the world.
Oh where do I start. First off I have been very wrong about â€œVâ€. Yes, I am admitting that I am wrong. â€œVâ€ is a socialist. â€œVâ€ is a way to the left of that. I believe that â€œVâ€ may even be an anarchist.
â€œVâ€ have you ever been out of this country?.. Have you ever seen the Poverty out there? Do you really have any idea what the real poverty level is? I seriously doubt it. A single Billionaire could not solve it. You see that is the solution the arrogant LEFT like to espouse. Just throw money at the problem. If you really knew anything about history you would know that what Greece is going thru now is the same thing the USSR went threw and what every left wing form of Government will end up with. Communal social living forced by the state will fail. The motivation for improvement among the masses is taken away. The common citizen will stop producing when they meet there needs if there is no added benefit for producing more. You see. I need to grow 50 bushels of grain to survive. And another 50 bushels to give to the Government. Than If I grow another 50 bushels the government will take 45 of the and only leave me 5. NOPE it is not worth it to meâ€¦ That is social or communal living. You see â€œVâ€ the premise of the hunter you gave out was flawed. To describe social living as the left sees it the hunters will have a third person there with them forcing them to divide up the kill. While collecting there fee to oversee the division. Also if the first hunter does not ask for help then the 3rd person still shows up to collect half the kill and distribute it to a 4th person that has been sitting at his home doing nothing. Oh I know what about those that are unable to hunt. Well I am all for them baking bread or growing vegetables to trade for the meat. What if they are such an invalid that there is nothing they can do. Well we have just reached the point where true Charity comes in. That is who Jesus really speaks about helping, Jesus never ignored anyone that needed help. At the same time he did not just give anything away either. He expected those that could help themselves to do so. He also expected us to help those who could not with overwhelming charity. Jesus never wanted anyone to be unproductive. He even scorned them that were.
Hal Gor is Correct in his analysis of you analogy. It may sound good to the naÃ¯ve college student you recruit. Heck when I was under 29 I might have bought it to. But I have a few years under my belt and see the world with 20/20 vision. I also see you for what you are. If your ilk attempt a revolt against this country you will fail. We are not afraid of a scrap. I have been under fire before. The enemy has engaged me before and I am still walking the glorious world God has made for us and they are not. So rise up I will be standing there when you do.
So Jerk you will be ready, even eager, to resort to violence eh? To defend the status quo…? Really?? If the original Tea Party occurred today you would be the British soldiers firing upon the poorly disguised “Indians” and Americans protesting corporate abuse. Is that what you’re saying? I believe so.
America and modern Americans have quite a history of violence against those who choose to attempt to rid themselves of their oppressors, even to the extent of subverting fledgling or not so fledgling democracies. The Founding Fathers (most of them anyway) would be very distraught at the likes of Jerk et al.
Your added years have only dissolved your objectivity and solidified the selfishness that comes with some success. Unfortunately that is a very common occurrence.
Let me make this perfectly clear. What you call the Status Quo I call The Constitution of The United States of America. I will defend it against all enemies both foreign and domestic. As long as you and your ilk only exercise your rights as described in the Constitution and its amendments you will not see any protest from me outside of the same framework. How ever if you rise up to change the Constitution by any other means than what is allowed by it I will stand against you. I will defend it with my life. If that defense results in violence it is not of my making but of the making of the enemies of this sovereign nation. ANY fellow citizen that rises up against the Constitution is a domestic enemy. I will meet them with the same zeal as described. You can paint me a violent extremist if you want that is your opinion. What I am is a man that is determined to stand his ground. I will not give up one more inch to the Left. They have taken enough and only weakened our position in the world. You told me to go down south. I am from and currently live in the south. Your comments were elitist and ignorant. You are what I pointed out in my comment. And I want you to understand this. A college education without life experience is worthless. Before you spew your opinion you should weight it with life experience. If you have never been anywhere then go to a local Church and volunteer to go on mission trips to truly help the poorest of this nation and the world as I have. Join the military and see the brutal side of the world. I have seen what real oppression is. You have ideas but lack maturity and personal growth to see what you have learned really means outside of the academic world..
You see those that agree with me here see this global warming for what it is. A scam to consolidate legislative power over the masses one small piece at a time. The left has enacted so many programs that the poor are chained to the government, dependant upon it for everything. Food, Housing, Medicine, Utilities, ECTâ€¦. The big corporations are the enemy because they provide the masses with jobs to break the shackles of the liberal left. So use Cap and Trade and other legislation to deduce growth. Attack the middle class by making it harder to be successful in businessâ€¦.. Dude I could write for ever on how off track you and V are.
What you have missed is that the USSR died. It was killed by Capitalism. China is becoming more and more capitalist every day. There government will transform as the people learn what prosperity tastes like. Also, The last election should have been the writing on when wall for you. The average voting American has see the socialist movement for what it is. You all should have moved faster over the last 2 years. I think that the only recourse you have now will be a violent overthrow. Remember when you take that step there are millions of Americans like me that will fight back. You see the Second Amendment was written because out founding fathers knew that there are groups like the Anarchist movement that each and every American has the right to defend them selves against.
I appoligize I had to go here. These two are not pushing me around.
Jerk A. Knot
In your (you know what)
Ok, Jerk, I see it and read it. My response to you is this: blah blah blah. What are you a lawyer? Is this some kind of apololgy? If so I dont see it. You are full of yourself sir. Maybe southern born means you need to move back and secede from the US. Otherwise save your overblown rhetoric for your redneck buddies.
It’s really even worse than that- you are ready and eager to fire upon your fellow citizens. Very sad- maybe you should move down South. You might like it there better. Some of them still have hate from the First Civil War. You might be able to organize the 2nd one and rise up in the ranks. I can see it now…
[obscene comment deleted]
Yep. it’s more than sad. It’s (Jerks eagerness to kill his fellow citizens) what is obscene.
Funny how this reality works, huh? Jerk’s obscene comment is uncommented on besides mine, and my appropriately obscene comment to him is deleted. That’s ok though. Jerk’s violent tendencies run rampant on the Right, and his honesty about that is actually refreshing but also horrifying.
Capitalism is like a punctured tire, it is hole ridden and needs replacing. It began majorly failing at the turn of the century and instead of replacing it we are INFLATING it every few years. Are the flaws of the system not apparent.
Taxes are taken on all goods and services, along side this inflation is taking place. Is there something wrong here? What was the average price of a house 50 years ago? 40? 30? 20? 10? Today? The value of currency drops each time new money is generated, tax money is taken so new money doesn’t need to get generated. So what is happening here? We are getting it from both ends, thats what. We are blowing air into a leaking tire. The US government should have left the tire alone when it went flat in 2008. The bad tire would have got shredded, the car would have stopped running for a while but a new tire would have been put on to take it’s place.
One thing I know, when a tire is compromised and you start full speed ahead, the end cost will be far greater than the tire alone, the whole car is in danger.
Change that damn tire already!
And I’m not proposing we replace the tire with one that has been previously removed. Socialism, communism and capitalism have been shown ineffective, the first two have been removed for a reason, the reason was that they were ineffective, just like the last has proved it self to be. The banks are at the root of today’s financial problems.
Removing Capital governance (which is goverment run by banks), does not remove money, money has been used as a value holder for thousands of years, long before capitalism as a system took rule.
Removing capitalism envolves removing banks from world rule. Capitalism is a world run by capital. Communism is a world run by communities. Socialism is a world run by societies. All of these systems have flaws. Capitalisms problem is that the holders of capital (banks) have overtaken power of that capital which in turn results in power over the people, interest rates are at the forefront here. Communisms problem is that in order to take care of the communities the governing body takes control of the money earned by people which is then reappropriated amongst the communities. Socialisms problem is that the upper classes (who are usually intellectually superior), those of higher social standing, take rule of the rest.
Within socialist societies those with highest social standings (kings and queens) rule.
Within communist societies those appointed to keep all men equal (presidents) rule.
Within capitalist societies those who hold capital (banks) rule.
It is time to retire these systems.
Capitalism, where the means of production are privately owned and operated for a profit. yea..I don’t see bank in that definition. Any way, you never mentioned anything about Banks competing. Isn’t that the beauty of the free market? Bank A offers 3% on a savings account with a deposit of $2000. Bank B will give you 4% and a Pasta Pummel Stone with a $3000 deposit. It is all a market, a free market. Before you go off on a “The Banks are out to get you” rant, you do know that there are laws against what you are saying the banks are doing? So the problem does not lye in the market being spoiled it is in the enforcement of the current laws. I feel Capitalism is still the best system going and its the only good tire on the darn car. The only time Capitalism begins to break down is when the Government starts to “guide it”. It can’t work that way and it is showing that now.
I agree Mr Groar with one addendum. Over Guide it. in a complex system there has to be rules. as your statement suggests that that is understood. There must be an entity it protect the balance with sound limited regulation.
You remain blind to the fact that we are ruled by Oligarchs and they are out to get as rich as possible. How? Steak from the middle class, that’s how. The have boought and paid for our government. There is no line in between any more. And that my friends is accurately called Fascism.
Steal, not steak. Freudian slip I guess. They are stealing our ability to afford steak as well…
What system do you want?
To tell you honestly Knot, all of the systems (socialism, communism, and capitalism) are constructed with a proposed positive outcome (they all ran well in their infancy), the problem with all of them is that a small percentage of the population have learned how to manipulate them to their advantage, all of the systems have been proved to have loopholes (weaknesses). What is needed is a system that cannot be cheated. Look at football now a days, with the cameras and playbacks no cheating takes place, almost all contested plays result in fair play, due to technological advances.
We are advancing like never before as a race, what I propose we switch to is a technicalistic society, a society run by technology, technicalism.
Back to capitalism, the definition of capitalism has no real world resemblance to what capitalism was designed for. Capitalism was designed to free the markets for the people, what happened is that along with Industrialization, the capital holders (bankers) rose to unimaginable power. They are playing with the hard earned money that they are holding for the people, and they keep messing things up. When you earn 2 dollars today, for example, you can take that 2 dollars and buy a loaf of bread, in ten years from now those two dollars you’ve worked so hard for won’t buy you a half a loaf anymore. Your work today doesn’t translate its
To tell you honestly Knot, all of the systems (socialism, communism, and capitalism) are constructed with a proposed positive outcome (they all ran well in their infancy), the problem with all of them is that a small percentage of the population have learned how to manipulate them to their advantage, all of the systems have been proved to have loopholes (weaknesses). What is needed is a system that cannot be cheated. Look at football now a days, with the cameras and playbacks no cheating takes place, almost all contested plays result in fair play, due to technological advances.
We are advancing like never before as a race, what I propose we switch to is a technicalistic society, a society run by technology, technicalism.
Back to capitalism, the definition of capitalism has no real world resemblance to what capitalism was designed for. Capitalism was designed to free the markets for the people, what happened is that along with Industrialization, the capital holders (bankers) rose to unimaginable power. They are playing with the hard earned money that they are holding for the people, and they keep messing things up. When you earn 2 dollars today, for example, you can take that 2 dollars and buy a loaf of bread, in ten years from now those two dollars you’ve worked so hard for won’t buy you a half a loaf anymore. Your work today doesn’t translate its value into tomorrow. While you go on saving your money for your future, and your childrens future, the value of the money you earn today drops with time.
Capitalism is not bad, the exploiters of it are. The only way to combat this is through removal of their power, which is your money. When Credit cards were introduced in the last century the interest rate was 1%, compare that to todays 10-20% and more, people are being raped by banks. I’m not trying to disrupt the system, the system is flawed, compromised, bankers are becoming ultra rich, they are literally running the world. They are above governance as they hold all that which you and I work for.
Would a technology based system be without faults? I cannot say that, but it would take some time for the loopholes, if any, to be realized. What needs to take place is a world wide humanity unification, with all people having an input on how the system needs to be constructed. The technology is here, the Internet, that allows for connectivity between all of us. Stop the backdoor legislative meetings, all laws should be voted on online so all people are involved in the process of governance.
If nothing else, leave capitalism in place.
But if we leave capitalism as the system we use government needs to regulate banks, their service is not worthy of their cost. The bankers are ruining the free market, they are charging the market so the market is no longer free.
Banks need to be government owned and controlled. This could save capitalism and once again free the markets.
Thomas Jefferson once said:
“If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.”
He saw how wealth corrupts. Remember thy just threw out the British that had been Taxing Colonies at 75% or better. The average Colonist lived a better life than the average Brit. America was wealthy then and stays that way. The first sentence here is the key. It speaks to the issuance of money. That must be highly regulated and controlled. He never once condoned the government take over of Banks. They are vital to our commerce. But it is easy to extrapolate that he wanted regulation to limit there manipulation of the market to achieve an unfair advantage.
Capitalism is not a form of government. It is an economic system in which the means of production are privately owned and operated for a private profit; decisions regarding supply, demand, price, distribution, and investments are made by private actors in the free market; profit is distributed to owners who invest in businesses, and wages are paid to workers employed by businesses and companies. There are about a dozen recognized forms of Capitalism. Each one is fairly distinct and has its own prows and cons. As the US stands now we operate in a mixed economic environment. The closer we are to pure capitalism the better off we are. As a Republic. It is better for us as a nation as well. I recognize the need for regulation. Like in your analogy of sports regulation is necessary because there is human involvement. We need to use all the technology we can use to enforce the regulations and I for one support that. But we do not need that regulation and enforcement to stall the â€œGAMEâ€™ and bring growth to a halt. I Gave Rob an example a last month ago that he has never acknowledged. I will say it again. Our current regulations in the US are sufficient to protect the environment. If we enforce them. When a Co. is caught breaking them they need to be hit hard against there Bottom Line. Fine them in the form of % of there profits for the last year or quarter rather than a fixed amount. You see If I make $20 mil a year a $10k fine does not hurt me much. But a 10% fine ($2 mil) would. We have got to get our heads right and stop pointing fingers. Find solutions.
Hey Knot, I actually had some fundemental misunderstandings of political systems. I actually thought that capitalism was a form of governance, after reading your post I’ve educated myself on political systems and economic systems. Thank you for your post, I’m not a poli sci or economics major, but I am very concerned about the state of the world today, I’m not blind to the happenings.
Democracy is the only governmental system that should be allowed, socialism is counter productive, it place power in the hands of high society (royalty), democracy (in perfect cases) allows all people to have control over policies, or politics. I hold strong on the point I made though, new world capitalism has faults, banks have control of all money, if they shut down today we’d all be in trouble, they are holders of capital, our money, if they closed their doors you’d never see a penny of your money again. They cannot be allowed the freedom that businesses receive. Why? Because central banks hold all of the peoples capital. In democracy people run the country, banks hold the peoples money, so the people need to run the banks. It is quite simple and a logical escalation.
The banks cannot be afforded rights over governance, but they have it, this is gross conduct and an insult to the democratic system. Banks need to be run by government because the government is run by the people. To fix capitalism regulation of banks need to be left in the hands of the people, that will fix problems like inflation and interest rates and so forth, when the people run the banks an end to banker profiteering will take place. This is the only solution to today’s capitalist system. Complete government control (which is people run in democracies) over banks. This is the only solution here.
Thank you for your post, I enjoy hearing from intelligent people, even if our views don’t entirely match up, I still have much to learn and it is people like you that point me in the right directions by clarifying my errors in perception. I believe I’ve explained in this post the message that I meant to convey. Banks cannot be given freedom from governance (which they unfortunately have) because that which they hold belongs to us all. I’m not proposing tighter regulations, I’m proposing absolute regulations, the banks need to be government owned and operated, the money they hold is mine and yours, we run the government so we should by law run the banks.
Thomas J. was perhaps the most intelligent and thoughtful man this country has ever seen. Ever will…?
To V. below. The USA is SUPPOSED to be a democracy, but sadly we really aren’t. And there are many reasons for this but the main one is corporations have total control over our government via several ways. And so I say this very sadly, we have become fascist by definition. It’s just effectively sugar-coated and able to hide itself thru corporate owned mass media. TV has been our demise. We don’t think for ourselves any more. Education is treated as a disease.
meant for V above… sheesh that can be frustrating
Buzzzzzz! No. The USA is SUPPOSED to be a Constitutional Republic.
Upon exiting the Constitutional Convention in 1787, Benjamin Franklin was famously asked, “What kind of government have you given us?”
He replied, “A republic, if you can keep it.”
We’re on the verge of losing it, but it’s what the United States of America was intended to be, and that republic is what has provided the environment to become the freest, most prosperous nation the world has EVER seen.
V really shows his true colors just like Rod n Steal hood. They will never change. As to Sir Knot’s comments. If the day ever comes, God forbid, we definitely will be defending our positions and will be there. Have a Merry Christmas. Oops, according to your mindset thsat isn’t politically correct. Darn, I forgot. You must be inclusive to all, correct? Finally, Sir Knot, I believe you are correct. College mentality with never ever being in the real world. Must haver good professors? Bill Ahers???
Please don’t speak for me Paul, as usual you are wrong. Although I agree with the beginning of V’s statement, I disagree with the end. Plus he/she doesn’t provide a substitute for the known systems. I fully believe that Modern Socialism works very well because it is a mixture of Capitalism and Socialism. In fact, we have that now, in the USA, but the greater emphasis has been on Capitalism of course, and that has been our down-fall. The Scandinavian countries are very good examples of what we could be but aren’t due to the evil and false propaganda against Socialism.
Funny how you guys try to marginalize us because we may be college educated. That is sooooo lame. W had an MBA, and look at the mess he created. Plus all your political heroes are college educated (except maybe for The Two Tea Queens).
And Rightys saying the problem is not the offender but the enforcer not enforcing the laws is HILARIOUS. Who has cut the regulatory/enforcement agencies over the past 30 years??? Not Dems… Your “logical” thought processes are entirely illogical. And you cannnot even see that, ever, apparently.
I completely understand your angered stance over todays societal affairs. But think about this: in the time of Robin Hood kingdoms had reign over the people, socialism was the form of governance at that time (upper social classes like kings, queens, dukes, etc. ran the world and had complete reign over peasants), your world view (which I gathered from your posts) does not match the system your proposing. Socialism is by definition a system run by upper social classes, Robin Hood fought against this system by stealing from upper classes and by dispersing the wealth amongst the people.
Your social stance, as I’ve gathered, is more of a communist one. The communist system us not a bad one, I was born in a communist country, but as a system there are too many openings (loopholes) for the greedy to exploit. In a perfect, best case, scenario, communism is not a bad form of governance, it, in perfect cases, ensures that all men are equal. The world is not perfect. Communisms fatal flaw is that dictatorial rule follows, someone must set the standard for all others to live by, as a result political thievery takes place. The dictator in most cases will keep a large portion of the wealth for himself, giving large amounts to his family and friends, by the time the money makes its way down to the people there is little of it left, poverty is a huge problem is communist states for this reason.
No- I am only sympathetic to communism, in the sense of how it was originally intended. The Right has no concept of that, and even when they do they are repelled by the idea of people working together for the benefit of the whole. Anyway, I have stated more than once I am for a mixture of Socialism and Capitalism, such as the Scandianvian countries enjoy. We here in America also have a mixture of those two systems. But our MAIN problem since the last 30 years or more is letting more and more control over to Corporations and laizezz faire (spelling??) policies. This seems EXTREMELY clear to me and many others, and yet wven with Obama we are still headed down that dead end road to implosion (in fact we already imploded once, financially, what more evidence does anyone NEED???!!!).
Also disagree with your statment that medieval times were Socilaist. They were mainly fiefdoms and the peasants were serfs or outright slaves, indentured or otherwise. We are closer to that system here and many other placws thanks to the cult and brainwashing of “Free-market”Capitalism. And America is now no different than your corrupt Communism. We just have Many Dictators, not just one, who have all the money, power and control. And the more gullible beleive that is freedom and the American way. We are brainwashed and ridiculous…
Think of the possible negatives of socialism.
In socialistic societies those of higher social standing are given power by those of lower social standing. Think of a grade school for example because kids have less than $10 in their pockets, the hierarchy is not based on buying power. Who rules among these children, those with the most popularity, and what is popularity? It is group instated power.
In today’s societies there are clear faults and those faults need to be addressed and corrected, changing a system changes policies (politics), and it gives possibility of correcting the problems through procedural changes (protocol). When the system of governance is changed with it comes change in protocol.
How will changing society into one where the popular kids rule from one where everyone gets an input (democracy)? Democracy is not running perfectly, the drivers proposing changes in policies are individuals and a lot (almost all) of those policies are pushed through before everyone is given time and option to vote on the issues at hand. So what is going on with democracy? The fault with democracy is that higher societal figures (popular kids) are voting for the rest of the population, this is not what true democracy is.
It is in socialist societies that the higher-classes (the socially popular ie royalty) get to make changes to policy without the involvement of the rest of the population. The problem with democracy (freedom) today is that socialist rule is taking place.
All this is beside the point, it is well known that freedom has been signed away due to rise in terrorism, the people have placed power into the hands of those they entrusted to protect them from those who commit acts of terror. We are all being fooled into surrendering our democratic right to govern over ourselves by writing and instating our own policies. So you are right when you speak of the veil in front of our eyes, the smokescreen between us and the decision makers.
Socialism places policy making power into the hands of the rich and powerful. They are given power in deciding for all the standards of societal living. In a socialist society your money is taken away and used for programs like; education, healthcare, government infrastructure etc.
I am all for humanitarian acts of bettering society but I enjoy giving to those programs because I voted to have them in place rather than having my money taken away because the rulers of society (royalty, the popular) are deciding for me where my money should go.
Socialism you are thinking of works only in perfect worlds, same as communism. The world is not perfect so the more people involved in the process of policy making, which by definition is democracy, the better. If we Destroy the planet in a democratic system at least we know that we are all to blame, if we give power away (as we already unfortunately have) the only solution is to fight for it back. We cannot allow a socialist system to exist, I want the power to vote on every societal issue.
What we need to strive for is a perfectly democratic system. That includes power over capital (banks), they should not be entities free of governance, money is not a product or a service, yet banks treat it as such, money is a value holder and the actions of bankers treating it as a product to profit from is driving the value down.
So there is the solution everyone has been asking for.
1. Bring in a perfect democratic system where every individual has involvement in the act of instating every policy.
2. Democratic Government run banks, where banks are owned and operated by the people.
Dan you guys Loooove to throw out the “REPUBLIC” thing. It’s basically just an exercise in semantics (yes I know they mean two separate things) but WE ARE a DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC. You looooove to leave that part out. And that’s what scares me. It appears you are so extreme you don’t believe in democracy. THAT IS VERY DISTURBING AND UNAMERICAN.
To V above. We are a mixture of Socialism and capitalism. Which may be the best of both worlds. The problem we have today is NOT that Socialism is taking over, but that the Corporate Capitlist Elite have taken over. Do you really not see that? You otherwise seem intelligent, so what’s up with that???
Not knocking education it is a wonderful thing. Both of my daughters have college degrees. It is the quote un guote “educated idiots” that with no factual knowledge make statements that we are to believe because of their “Degree.” One thing lacking no matter whom they may be is common sense. Use Mann as an example. How’s that hockey stick study doing now that most sheeple believed? That is my point very simply.
Hey Rob! Did you read my post about my Violent tendencies above…. I am going on Holiday and wanted to be sure you saw itâ€¦ See you next week and Merry Christmas.
Yes…. and I responded to your incredibly conceited and sadly common rhetoric.
Ok. You read but don’t understand. Let me say this slowly. I am from the south and I currently live there. So I do not need to move back there. You calling me conceted is like the pot calling the kettle black. My rhetoric is indeed common as it is shared by a majority of America as demonstrated on NOV 4th. Please remember this Rob if it was not for rednecks you would have no food on your table and your shirt would be itchy…… I don’t think you will ever understand why that is so. HA HA HA your lame posts make my day.
Well, to me the ultimate conceit is stating that you would be/could be willing and able to kill your fellow American. Not to mention horrific and bizarre. But perhaps par for the course when it comes to a southern Tea Bagger. You people often frighten me more than any foreign “terrorist”.
Calm Down you are so over the top here that I dont think that you realize what you are saying.
Rob I am saying this real slow.
If people try to change the Constitution by peaceful legal means then so be it.
If people rise up to illegally change the Constitution I will stand against them. I have taken an oath to defend this Republic against all enemies Foreign and Domestic. So if they decide to force that change I will stand and fight in order to defend this Republic for its enemies. It would not please me to do so but I also would not shirk from the responsibility. I am sure if it came to that you would be found hiding in your closet fearing the very mayhem your ideas bring.
I know that it makes you sick to even think about that. If it were not for people like me You would not have had the chance to go to a community college. (every day I doubt your education more and more) Nor would you have the freedom you do to type the drivel you do into your computer without having to worry about having your door kicked in.
Very arrogant response from you. Not surprising. If you were to kick my door in I would try and stop you. You are apparently nothing more than an average run-of-the-mill fascist. Your kind does all the dirty work for the elite. You make me sick.
Sir Knot, he makes mine as well as others. Someday he may get an emotional time, but I doubt it. He’s never dealt with reality. His three jobs is getting surreal. Probably is single?
Again, a conceited response from both of you is… no surprise. I’d like you to surprise me one day. Some Southerners continue to be defensive and overly proud. About what I’m not really sure. If it was up to me I’d let you secede. Wish you could. You’d come crawling back to the Fed and it’s money sooner or later- probably sooner. It would be fun to watch. And if in the unlikely event that you succeeded in your seccession, I’d be equally happy. More Federal money goes to the “Red” states than the Blue ones. Fact.
And it’s two jobs, Paul. Never said three. My wife holds two as well. The American dream… is killing me slowly.
“The American Dream ..is killing me slowly.” Your quote. Never killed my great grandfather, grandfather, father nor me or my family. I sense that you hate responsibility to feed and clothe your family? That’s called life. Deal with it.
Those generations saw live improving for thier kids. Mine is the first generation in the history of this country, more or less, that this isn’t occurring. We work harder and fall further behind. That is what is very disheartening for many Americans, including myself. I pay all my bills, on time, etc. I’ve played by the rules and done everything asked of me and expected of me. Your continued denial of reality is bizarre. We are all being used and abused by the elite wealthy, and they are not communists or even socialists. They are the people you on the Right continually defend. You are defending the problem, thus you are part of the problem.
If you are paying your bills on time why are you falling further behind. Are you borrowing more money? If so Why? Are you trying to live above your means. I got ahead by living below my means. I only increased my living standard when my means allowed. It sounds to me like you want to blame someone else for your poor decision making…. Sorry if I offended you again. Maybe the “elite” become that way because they earned it. I know some donâ€™t they inherit it. Just like I want my kids to do.
I must disagree with you there Knot, the poor today are forced to live beyond their means because if they lived within them they wouldn’t live at all. By this I mean being forced to choose between necessities, like choosing between heat and food. Your point is correct, many of the middle-class choose to live upper-class lifestyles but some (and by some I mean poor) MUST further indebt themselves just to survive. It is either financial suicide (as in accrue debt they can’t get out of), or, physical suicide (as in die of starvation), these are options some are left with.
I have seen what you describe. I have been in some of the poorest nations in the world. I have been places where raw sewage runs down the middle of the street and the poor live in little more than cardboard boxes. The size of these shanty towns is overwhelming. We have nothing to compare them to here in the U.S. A very small population is that poor. Don’t get me wrong we have some seriously needy people. They are just not as prevalent as in some of the places I have been. No one here has to borrow money to buy essentials. That is just not the case. There are plenty of entitlement systems out there providing everything from cloths, food, Utilities, to cell phones. Here is an example of what I am talking about when I speak about living beyond your means.
She can not get the government to pay her power bill but has money for a big old LCD tv and a Wii. not to mention the Cable that goes to it and the games to play on it. That is just one example…. I go into the HUD housing Developments here to help the kids on a regular basis. There are families in there that live in free housing and have a better car than I do… I have people come to my business and put an application in and ask me to sign off on there Federal form showing that they are looking for work even after I tell them that we are not hiring… do not tell me about the Poor in the US Very few of them are truly stuck because of capitalism. A capitalist needs a vibrant work force. Since the socialist destroys the work force by increasing dependency on the government the capitalist looks elsewhere like China, India ect…
So they have a nicer car than you. OMG, really? That is your beef? Maybe that’s all they have to show the the rest of the American consumers they aren’t total losers. You need to get beyond junior high school critical thinking.
I believe in survival of the fittest.
I am a libertarian. Give me liberty or give me death.
This is where law exits and morality enters:
Nobody should ever be forced to care for another, but what does it mean to be human? Are we just animals or are we gods children? Would Jesus turn away and leave children to die on the streets?
We can be with or without a government, but are we humans if we have no morals? The world is not ok, the second coming is imminent, one will rise to guide the way to purity.
Is capitalist greed the way to absolution?
I am not religious, religions segregate, i find beauty in all scripture but follow none, I follow my heart and you shall too.
God is the programmer that designed this universe, his inputs and his alone count. I’m not here to judge anyone, and neither should government, would god allow a judge to reign verdicts over the wicked? The law system is not just, no man may judge another until he’s walked a mile in his shoes. One man can never fully understand the motives of another therefore judgement is only just if passed by one who knows all.
Justice is blind. Blind justice is not just.
Jesus saved man once, times then were righter than now, a just god will cleanse this earth of those who live in an unjust way. The mortal sins exist, it is those of pure hearts that god loves. Jesus saved the sinners from gods wrath, he died to teach all men a lesson, have you learned a thing?
Oh so much to say It will have to wait until the morning….. V I do appreciate that you make your points without being personal about it. I will post my thoughts Tomorrow….
Have you? The words sound pretty good. It’s the hypocrisy of people who use these words to sound pious and superior. “a person shouldn’t be forced to help someone.” Does Jesus’ words/teachings “force” you to help someone? Yes/no?
I made no poor decisions, and have lived below my means, thus paid all the bills and owe nothing. NOTHING!! Except a mortgage. AND YET WE CANT TAKE THE KIDS ON EVEN ONE VACATION A YEAR, and many other things I enjoyed with my family as a kid. We don’t spend foolishly, don’t go out to eat, etc. That’s all I’m saying. it is the truth for many people. Stop being arrogant for one minute…. oh wait, that’s probably too difficult for you. This is REALITY in America and there’s a reason for it. And IT’S NOT A SOCIALIST/COMMUNIST PLOT. Stop being lunatics, pull your heads out and help us save America.
BTW the mortgage is $550/mo. Yep, that’s all. Your rose-colored glasses are great for you, aren’t they?
V, cut to the chase. My family was poor but we really never knew it until we grew up and we lived with it and learned from it thereafter. I was “poor” when I started and had nothing until I worked hard for that which I have as do others in society and live within my means (income). Is it easy? NO! Don’t lay guilt trips on hard working people and putting them into the same box you put “poor” people. Persons that go to work every morning, pay their bills and then see their neighbors getting handouts for doing nothing other than going to the mailbox to secure their check from people like them that WORK cannot understand why the “poor” that don’t work for a living have big screen TV’s, a car better than theirs, cell phones, guaranteed monthly checks, unemployment, food stamps. welfare, free medical at ER, et al. Oh that’s right, they are entitled, I forgot. You sound like Chavez. Finally, there will always be “poor” people in good times or bad. Always have and always will. Hasn’t changed in over 2000 years. Suggest you give to food shelves etc. I assume that you do?
Uh oh. Paul’s mad. He’s spouting the same old RW rhetoric again. Good robot… good boy.
I deal in reality. Same statements that will never change I love how you chastise people on this site with no knowledge of the real world versus your “reality.” It is surreal in what you post. I assume that someday you may broaden your horizon? I doubt it. I visualize you in a chair in a corner room looking at a monitor that seems to suit you fine, never leaving to see the world as it exists. Suggest you get up, take a walk, travel and see reality. Until you do, you will never understand will you.
As I’ve said before my opinions, when I post them, are most of the time more mainstream than yours. Yours is the surreal life. You are the extremist, and your politician’s too. Just sayin’. Only you and your ilk think otherwise.
If they are your opinions then why may we ask why you cut and paste? Do you have an opinion other than quoting others? Plagarism is a wonderful thing I guess? Remind me of Wizard of Oz. When will the curtain come back to see who is actually behind it? You or the anarchist that you seem to quote consistently? Alinski tactics have been taught to you well.
Paul… really now. I post plenty of my own words. Why don’t you yell at Jerk for cutting and pasting from the Bible then? Don’t be so petty and childish. Your brain is locked into a fascist-leaning mindset, and it apparenlty cannot be changed one iota.
Sir Knot acknowledges it. You don’t. There is a difference. Those are my words, period. You are correct on one statement. My mindset will never change especially after reading your posts.
Glad I could be of assistance. now go fetch… good boy…
Yes, I’m a “good Boy.” Did you know that I’m black!
Nope, course not, how would I? (I don’t believe it, but whatever, I was referring to you as a good dog, who fetches, obviously) Be that as it may, I will try and refer to you only as a robot. Or a ditto-head. Or a wing-nut.
There aren’t too many black Republicans. I’m not sure about Libertarians though. Probably not that many there either. Congratulations.
There are a lot more black Republicans than you think and more and more all the time.
As far as what to refer to fellow commentators as – use their names (or published aliases). Stick to debating issues, not the personalities of other readers. Not picking on Rob specifically here – just that this post caught my attention. Remember the rules. Civil debate. No personal insults. My moderation hand has been light lately and I see civility is drifting.
Dan- once again you resort to magical thinking. Statistics, as they say, don’t lie. At least the genuine ones don’t lie. The numbers may be growing as you say (I’ll take your word for it), for minorities joing the ranks of the Right, but I’d bet money not to any substantial degree. Nor will they ever. There are many obvious reasons for this some of which I post here regularly. Anyway, they (minorities) are still FREE to do so and that is a good thing. That said, the Democrat Party needs to change from becoming more and more like the Republicans. If it doesn’t, then it won’t matter who’s who. However, I argue that this meshing of the two parties has already occurred, and to such a degree to make the few differences between the parties basically useless, esxcept for purely political theater.
The entire UN should be cut off from any american tax payers money we should no longer even belong to the UN at all
Once upon a time not long ago the USA owed the UN millions (give or take) in unpaid dues, etc. We were being a dead-beat in other words. Not sure where things stand now. I never understood why the Right wing is so anti-UN. I have my theories though. What we owe China is much much much more and a much bigger concern, or at least I think it is. But hey I’m just a Liberal, what do I know.