Obama Imposes Fuel Efficiency on Detroit

president_official_portrait_lowresBy Martin Sieff

U.S. President Barack Obama has announced his long-projected new guidelines to cut fuel costs and increase U.S. auto efficiency. But his program looks certain to dramatically boost the costs of purchasing new cars for American consumers, putting a heavy new burden on the Detroit automakers who are already struggling to survive or staring bankruptcy in the face.

Calculations of the cost of the Obama plan vary. Administration officials admit the new standards will impose an increased cost of at least $1,300 on new cars by 2016. But the Environmental Protection Agency, which will enforce them, says that the savings in fuel efficiency will be so great that individual car purchasers will save that money back within 3.2 years of buying their new vehicles.

However, these projections seem to have included a significant amount of wishful thinking and blind guesswork. The projections were made without factoring in any serious inflation, but the huge increase in U.S. federal spending already approved by Obama and his Democrat-controlled 111th Congress guarantees that at the very least significant inflation will come, the worst in almost 30 years. And if the Chinese, Japanese and other state banks holding U.S. treasury bonds lose confidence in Obama’s management of the U.S. economy, it could trigger hyperinflation the likes of which have been seen in no major industrialized nation since the catastrophic hyperinflation of the Weimar Republic in Germany in 1923. Inflation could send car prices spiraling far higher than the extra $1,300 projected by the administration.

Obama unveiled the new plan, which was worked out in conjunction with the major U.S. automakers, Tuesday in a Rose Garden announcement. The new program is designed to greatly strengthen vehicle fuel efficiencies and establish limits on emissions from those vehicles. The White House outlined the rules it wants in effect in 2012 in a Monday briefing.

Read the rest of this article at UPI.

  • Rob N. Hood

    Here are the remedial steps that we must implement if we are to unleash the free market and reclaim capitalism’s former glory:

    1. Eliminate the public education system. If you don’t have money, you remain ignorant.
    2. Immediately cut public funding to maintain roads and highways. A toll booth at every other intersection would be a small price to pay for the reinvigoration of free markets.
    3. Close all public libraries. If you want to read, buy your books.
    4. Shut down all forms of public transit. Walking is good exercise.
    5. Completely deregulate and privatize public utilities. If the market drives prices too high for you, you can buy candles, piss in buckets, sweat, shiver, and boil creek water.
    6. Abolish police and fire departments. Settle your own disputes, protect yourselves, and keep your buckets and garden hoses handy.
    7. Put the EPA out of our misery. It’s time to end the tyrannical reign of fear mongering environmentalists.
    8. Labor laws, EEOC and OSHA? These anachronistic impediments to profit need to go. Let the market dictate wages, hours and working conditions. People need to be thankful to have a job, regardless of how miserable, discriminatory, or dangerous it might be.
    9. Eradicate the FDA and USDA. If a food or drug starts killing large numbers of people, distributors and manufacturers will police themselves in order to sustain their profitability.
    10. Dismantle the FAA. Plane crashes are simply a cost of doing business. Let’s put a sense of adventure back into flying.
    11. Halt all Social Security and Medicare handouts. The programs are insolvent. Our elderly need to start fending for themselves. Wal-Mart needs greeters. And as for those who are too infirm or feeble to work, they’re fortunate to have lived as long as they have.
    12. Kudos to Clinton for reforming “welfare”, but he didn’t go far enough. Medicaid and TANF must go. It’s time we introduced our spoiled and lazy rabble to the concept of the workhouse. It worked for the Victorians; it can work for us.

    Enacting these twelve reforms would go a long way toward restoring the supremacy of free market capitalism. However, our task would not be complete. Al Gore MUST be deported!

  • Dan McGrath

    Rob – your comment is nonsense, and unrelated to the topic. I’m getting an inclination to go back to moderating all comments.

  • Rob N. Hood

    It’s libertarian idealism. It may appear to be nonsense- I agree with you on that. BUT there are many people out there that believe this to be basically what they want for this country. It is somewhat satirical, but not much I’m afraid. Even the deporting of Al Gore- although I’m pretty sure that’s never going to happen!

  • Lone Wolf

    Dan
    Let him talk so all can see his foolish logic.

  • Neil F.

    “it could trigger hyperinflation the likes of which have been seen in no major industrialized nation since the catastrophic hyperinflation of the Weimar Republic in Germany in 1923.”
    Hows that for change? Hope? Progess?
    It is just astounding how people are bamboozled by this President. So he can speak a coherant sentance. Is that all that we require of our presidents? I geuss it doesn’t matter what he says, as long as he says it with great diction.
    Oh, and Wrong N’ Hoodwinked has confused Libertarianism with Libertinism.

  • tinyB

    Your logic is truly amazing. Bush the lesser left us with a record deficit, an economy in shambles due to deregulation and incompetence, and his solution was to give the banks $750 billion with no strings attached, and you blame the guy who’s trying to do something to create new jobs and lessen our dependence on foreign oil. Wake up and take a look at the real world.

  • Rob N. Hood

    Sure about that Neil. I don’t think so- but you’re always right so I must be wrong, again. Don’t you people get humor and satire and… guess not. You people are afraid of change and brainwashed. Did I once mention Obama above? Nope. What are you people reading? Not my posts I guess.

    The “free-market” or capitalism doing no harm and the best thing ever discivered has been in the national discourse for the last 30 years. The Right–who, by an amazing coincidence, just happen to be members of the Capitalistic Class–thought about it long and hard…

    …and realized they were the just and true inheritors of the earth. They had Ayn Rand novels and right-wing think tanks and egos the size of the Queen Mary to back them up. The fact that their policies invariably pulled a boner was simply overlooked, covered up or bailed out byt the middel class.

    Because Capitalist types like to pollute, we heard that pollution doesn’t exist. Because businessmen loathe regulations, we found out regulations are bad. Because businessmen don’t fancy the idea that we ‘re running out of oil, we learned that we have unlimited oil. Because businessmen don’t fancy the idea of global warming, we found out global warming is a big hoax. Because a rapaicious foreign policy often helps business, we got a rapacious foreign policy. Because businessmen like for our wages to go down, or remain the same for 20 years… well, that’s what happened.

    Capitlaists even project their own reality. They’re practically gods, as they themselves point out. And the own the media…. More amd more brainwashing occurs…

    Government, by contrast, is always bad, along with everyone in it. Government workers should be regarded as second-class citizens.

    The media parrots the idea, most of the time that he whole public sector is bad. People in government service are socialialists or communists! Environmentalists are nazis!

    This is what happens when people with massive egos, major media to brainswahs the masses, and modest intelligence get into power. And they buy the politicians, almost all of them. And they fund psuedo-grass roots movements. Opps, sorry Dan.

  • Neil F.

    Tinyb:
    Your kidding right? 1st of all I think it was a mistake for Bush 43 to do the first bailout. 2nd, do you think the $10 trillion+ deficit and bailouts that President Obama is tallying up is the answer? Are there more people out of work now, or fewer? So far Obama has not created a single job, and that is a fact.

    http://www.heritage.org/research/economy/wm2430.cfm

    Do you oppose drilling in the U.S.? Because if you do, then you are perpetuating our so called dependence on foreign oil. Or do you really think windmills, and solar panels, are going to provide the energy neccessary to drive our economy? They will not.
    I’m afraid that it is you who is not looking at the real world, because if you were you would see that the vast majority of oil that is imported into the U.S comes from Canada. You would also see that windmills and solar panels only produce electricity when the wind is blowing and the Sun is shining, and that when those aren’t happening the back up power will be from natural gas generators.
    Oh, but President Obama said it so it must be true, right?
    And as far as Bush’s teeny tiny $750 Billion deficit…. you know that one Trillion is 1000 Billion, right?

    http://blog.heritage.org/2009/03/24/bush-deficit-vs-obama-deficit-in-pictures/

    From the story above:

    “but the huge increase in U.S. federal spending already approved by Obama and his Democrat-controlled 111th Congress guarantees that at the very least significant inflation will come, the worst in almost 30 years. And if the Chinese, Japanese and other state banks holding U.S. treasury bonds lose confidence in Obama’s management of the U.S. economy, it could trigger hyperinflation the likes of which have been seen in no major industrialized nation since the catastrophic hyperinflation of the Weimar Republic in Germany in 1923.”

    Now, this may or may not happen. Me, I’m leaning towards may.

  • Rob N. Hood

    Socialism is better than capitalism. So say 20 percent of Americans, and another 27 percent say they can’t say which is better, according to an April 9 Rasmussen poll.

    There’s hope…?

    When you consider that virtually no newspaper, broadcaster, well-funded think tank, teacher, or anybody’s boss or commander ever said something nice about socialism, it’s remarkable that only 53 percent of us still favor rule by the moneyed class. Perhaps folks are learning how capitalism sacrifices happiness for individual gain.

    “Stand up, all victims of oppression/for tyrants fear your might/Don’t cling so hard to your possessions/For you have nothing if you have no rights.” (Billy Bragg)

    No less a “capitalist tool” than Forbes Magazine let a red cat out of the bag with a report this month that the happiest countries tend to be Scandinavian socialist democracies. High per-capita GDP certainly plays a role in their felicity, but even social democratic New Zealand, with per-capita GDP only 64 percent of the United States’, ranks with the 10 democracies above us in the happiness index. They pay high taxes in these pinkotopias, but folks enjoy entitlements like free college, extensive elder care, and 52-week paid maternity leave.

    The 2005 poll measured personal reports of enjoyment, pride in achievement and learning, being respected, among other things. Forbes suggests that such happiness derives from family, social and community networks, and a decent work-life balance, noting that the average workweek in Scandinavia is 37 hours.

    Nice dream, but how do we get there? Most of these countries dumped capitalist exploitation long ago and instituted mixed economies with socialist ideals. More contemporary models are the 11 Latin America countries pursuing “Socialism in the 21st Century.” They too reject top-down Leninism for a system based on participatory democracy and solidarity.

    The economies of Latin America’s red eleven are improving, although none of them has instituted a socialist utopia. They are still subject to the slings and arrows of egotism, error, and internecine conflict. But they have overcome the greatest impediments to their advancement, including the U.S.-based bankers who are draining our treasury now. And the civil society they created in the struggle is the guarantor of their democracy.

    Before finding the path of progress, many of these countries had lurched from violent paroxysm to confusion and resignation, not unlike what the U.S. currently endures.

    For example, bankrupted GM and Chrysler fired tens of thousands of employees, extorted immense sacrifices from active and retired autoworkers, and is dominated by the investment bankers who absorbed trillions in national wealth to keep themselves rich after destroying the economy.

    Instead of seizing plants as Canadian’s are doing, or adding “bossnapping” to plant occupations as the French have done, we shake our heads as the union negotiates the terms of surrender.

    What could we do with socialism? Well, take banks for starters: take them, so instead of private scams that go broke gambling with money they don’t own, they’d become public utilities that finance production, infrastructure, and homes. And treat aging industries like autos: instead of dumping, we’d transform them according to a national plan for green jobs and a healthy environment.

    Solidarity is the path as well as the destination of socialism. Solidarity grieves when a worker loses his job or sees her pension slashed. Solidarity cheers when a union wins middle-class pay. Solidarity rejects the greed of insurers as the distributor of healthcare and demands single payer for all.

    Solidarity smells the rat who divides white from black, black from gay, native from newcomer, or America from the rest of humanity.

    “So comrades come rally/For this is the time and place/The international ideal/Unites the human race.”

  • Lone Wolf

    Thank God we still have the 2nd Amendment!

  • Rob N. Hood

    Wasn’t it Dan who said it was Liberals who were all violent and stuff? However, most Liberals don’t own guns, don’t advocate war, and don’t make violent threats, even if they are empty ones. We don’t need to be fighting each other, and that’s why we Liberals get so exasperated with you righties. That is what THEY want us to do. You wing-nuts just don’t get it.

    The right wing is mired in “make it up as you go along” mode. Ever since George W. Bush and Karl Rove decided that they were no longer obligated to conform to the bonds of reality the republican party has not so much resembled a rudderless boat adrift at sea, as a boat lost in space where trivial things like gravity, linear thought, or cause and effect can not only be ignored, they simply don’t exist.

  • Neil F.

    Rob: Have you mistaken this website with the Daily Kos? Are you looking for converts? I don’t think you will find any here. You are fishing in a dry reiver bed…..bud.

  • Neil F.

    Rob:
    If any of this has to do with Obama imposing fuel efficiency on Detroit, Iv’e missed it. But I think you have missed something too.
    Here are the poll results:

    http://www.wbumpus.com/node/144

    “It is interesting to compare the new results to an earlier survey in which 70% of Americans prefer a free-market economy. The fact that a “free-market economy” attracts substantially more support than “capitalism” may suggest some skepticism about whether capitalism in the United States today relies on free markets.

    Other survey data supports that notion. Rather than seeing large corporations as committed to free markets, two-out-of-three Americans believe that big government and big business often work together in ways that hurt consumers and investors.”

    Here is the story you copied and pasted without sourcing:

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d56_1243316900&to_friend=1

    And here is the Forbes story that was mentioned.

    http://www.forbes.com/2007/11/27/workers-gelade-commitment-lead-manage-cx_sm_1127happy.html

    “Australia, the Netherlands and Switzerland were ranked as the “happiest” countries, while Latvia, Bulgaria and the Russian Federation appeared to be the least happy.”

    After reading the whole story I came to a different conclusion. Australia is not a socialist country, yet they are #1. #2 is the Netherlands which is a parliamentary democratic constitutional monarchy, not socialist. So one out of the top three is socialist. This is by no means reason to exclaim that socialism makes happier workers.

    But what do I know, I’m just a closed-minded, knuckle-dragging, red-faced, scotch-breath Conservative, who does not have the right to comment on, or question what you say.

  • Neil F.

    Rob: Here are just a few of those empty (as percieved by you) threats.
    There are a lot more, but I don’t want to waste electrons.
    I have also done several internet searches for violent republicans. As of yet, I have not found a single one in the United States. Just do a simple search for violent protests. What you will se is Liberal, after Liberal, after Liberal, acting out in violence. Get real dude.

    http://wcbstv.com/local/gop.convention.st.2.807904.html
    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/09/rnc-protests.html

  • Rob N. Hood

    You are deluded man. Besides, the people that generally start and/or cause property damage, etc. are Anarchists, NOT Liberals. There’s a difference. Not ot mention agents provocateurs. Governments, including this one, use them, at least on occasion. And although it is hard to prove it has been proven as fact all over the world. It is a very old but successful tactic.

  • Rob N. Hood

    Besides, you status quo oil freaks got the Congress and Senatwhores on your side. So why are you so worried??

    Last week, President Obama announced a new plan to make cars use less gas and reduce global warming gases. And under his leadership, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has taken the first steps toward similar action on coal power plants and oil refineries.

    That would spur development of solar and wind power and create huge numbers of clean energy jobs.

    How is Congress responding? They’ve let Big Oil and Coal sneak language into the energy bill to strip Obama’s EPA of the authority to take these kinds of crucial, visionary steps.

  • Rob N. Hood

    And then there’s this:

    In recent weeks, Steven Chu – who was appointed energy secretary by Barack Obama in December – has revealed that he is no longer willing to block the construction of new coal-powered electricity plants in the US, despite widespread opposition from green groups and having initially said that he would not permit their construction.

    Environmental campaigners object vociferously to coal plants – which atmosphere scientist James Hansen, director of Nasa’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York, recently labelled “factories of death” in an article he wrote for the Observer – because of their high carbon emissions.

    In addition, Chu has called for a slowdown in the development of hydrogen-powered vehicles in the US and slashed funding for new projects by 60%. “We asked ourselves: is it likely in the next 10 or 15, or even 20, years that we will convert to a hydrogen car economy?” Chu explained. “The answer, we felt, was no.”

    On top of these controversial pronouncements, Chu has eliminated funding for a project to build a nuclear waste store at Yucca Mountain in Nevada. Instead of storage, he has backed the construction of fast neutron reactors that could burn long-lived waste. Such a move, which would require a major expansion of the US nuclear industry, has alarmed ecology groups.

    So why are you guys worried again? I forget…

  • Neil F.

    I’m not deluded at all, in fact I am quite lucid, and thoughtful. I also remember stories that have been posted previously, such as this one:
    http://www.globalclimatescam.com/?p=288 And, this one: http://www.globalclimatescam.com/?p=285 So you are a little behind the curve here.

    “Not ot mention agents provocateurs. Governments, including this one, use them, at least on occasion. And although it is hard to prove it has been proven as fact all over the world.”

    Now if you read this statement’s last sentance, you’ll see that it is exactly the argument for AGW! It contradicts itself. Didn’t you take any writing classes? I would think that would be somewhere in a course requirement for a Master’s degree in Psychology. But I digress.

    As far as the EPA’s director Chu, I think that perhaps the realities of the real world might be interfering with the unrealisticaly ambitious plans that they sought to implement. No, wait a minute, he’s just doing it to piss you off, yeah, that’s it.

  • Neil F.

    Rob:
    How, exactly, is it delusional to point out the rest of the story that has been omitted by you? You’re reverting to insulting me again, to get a rise out of me. I don’t know why I bother. You don’t listen to anything I say, and when I point out where you are wrong, you insult me by calling me delusional.

    From now on I am going to stick to the posted stories. You can try to push my buttons all you want, but I can only bang my head against a wall for so long, before I get a splitting headache. Ineed an ibuprofin.

  • Rob N. Hood

    Neil, I’m very sorry I made you think so hard that your head hurts. The powers that be are on your side, not mine. So relax, have beer, and enjoy the world your kind has created for you and me.

  • Neil F.

    The powers that be? You mean like the President, the House, and the Senate? Last time I checked they were predominantly occupied by Democrats. How can you believe that the powers that be are on my side?
    That is just ridiculous.

  • Rob N. Hood

    Had to comment on your ignorant statement. You still don’t get it, don’t want to get it, apparently never will get it. The politicians in the currently absurd and corrupt system we have ARE NOT the powers that be. They are elected and come and go- the powers that be are the “One Percenters” that OWN everyting and buy the politicians. (Fact: One percent of the people own a majority of eveything valuable, and they are mostly Republican/Libertarians) Neil, you need to open your eyes and ears. I hate to be the one to tell you this but you are not as smart as you think you are. AND, the mess we are in now is due to relatively complete Rebublican control for the past 8 years. You are a simpleton.

  • Neil F.

    No, I get it. The super rich control everything. The Trilatteral Comission, the Illuminati. Oh, them, yeah, there on my side? I wish I had known that. So if they’re on my side, why is it I have to work everyday to pay my bills? Why do I live in a crappy little one-bedroom house, with a kitchen so small I have to keep my refrigerator in the dining room?
    You know what’s funny? I actually AGREE with you that they are calling the shots on just about everything. What is LAUGHABLE, is that you think they’re on my side! My side?!?!?!?! You want to think I’m duped into serving their will? Fine. I would not dismiss that out of hand. I’m willing to conceed that is entirely possible, after all I am only human and not immune to manipulation. But to say that they’re on my side? Do you really believe that? If it’s true, it surely has not elevated my station in life. I wish it were true, I could go for a house in the Hamptons and a Ferrari!! Actually, I would settle for a maid. They could have me in their pocket if they would just send someone to clean my house!
    Really, though, I do see where you are coming from. You’re a class-warrior. You are jealous of the wealth attained by the rich. You think they’re stealing it from the poor. You think they don’t deserve it. And, you think I’m to blame for that? That’s like blaming a drop of water for the ocean being wet. Why do you direct all of this at me? Talk about misplaced animosity!
    All I have done is believed something you disagree with. And so for that, you have assigned me as enemy. And so you group me in with everything you think is wrong with the world, and dump it on me as though I have a say in any of it.
    I’m really a nobody, and I don’t have much of a life. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, mind you. I’m just wondering why you think I matter. I mean, really, what’s the payoff for you if you persuade me to agree with you? I have no power, nor do I crave it. What I do have is freedom. And I exercise that freedom here by disagreeing with you. If you don’t like it, tough cookies.
    P.S. you are really a nobody too. You just like to think you matter.

  • Rob N. Hood

    Neil, we are all being manipulated and brainwashed, all the time. The key is to work to see thru it, logically and rationally. Just because are middle class etc. and dont get the “perks” from being on the side of the powers that be, doesn’t mean you are not, and that you are somehow immune from the brainwashing you (and everyone else) has received from birth. You and I are bascially poor in this richest of countries in the history of the human species because they want us to be that way. Then they can be ultra rich. Your reasoning about this is flawed, and simplistic. Same with Global Warming. The odds of this issue being a global conspiricay is really small, if you think logically and rationally. I am admitting it could be a true global conspiracy, but I only give it a 1-5% chance. Why? Becasue it would truly take such a massively and very expensive enterprise to do so that it would be the greatest, and so far somewhat successful, plot ever perpetrated by man. You’d have to bribe, threaten, or hypnotize the majority of the world’s scientists to agree that global warming has scientific merit. That feat alone tells me it’s not a “hoax” or whatever you want to call it. You really have to stretch logic and sound reasoning to ignore that and suspend your disbelief, to feel so certain is it a conspiracy. THAT is why I think you and other deniers are simple, and gullible, and apparently you are willing to risk your or other peoples children, not to mention all the plant and animal life on this miralce of planets, because you have decided something differently than the vast majority of all respected scientists around the entire world. Wow. That is tuly amazing to me. And you think I’m arrogant… and yes, Neil, I do think you are to blame for that- you and everyone else who thinks like you. Collectively you are insuring that the status quo is maintained and that you will never get the maid you want and probably deserve. Yes, you are being used and abused by the powers that be, and yes, I don’t think they deserve that much of the riches of the world. I do think you and I, and everyone else that works full-time (or two jobs like I do) deserve a little more comfort and security than we are allowed.

  • Paul Wenum

    Rob/Neil, Do what I have done for over 6 years. Sit around a campfire over a starlite night with MBA’s, PHD’s and without argument have discourse regarding “Global warming,” the effect of “Electric cars,” cause and effect etc. and let everyone have their say without interruption nor argument. You would be amazed what you find as well as agreement. I deeply wish our “chosen”, elected “Leaders” would do the same. Our group has an agreement. Brings facts, charts, studies, etc. and discuss in a logical way. I doubt that will ever happen in my lifetime. Sad isn’t it??

  • Rob N. Hood

    Paul we can do that all we want but it won’t change anything. We, the average citizen, have no power, unless of course we all band together. And that probably won’t happen, because as you can see when two people’s brains work completely differently, it just ain’t going to happen. What we need to do is change the political system in this country. It is broken, beyond simple repair. It needs a major overhaul. Until that happens there will be no true democracy in this country, power and money will continue to rule, and the brainswashing and oppression will continue. And that means conservatives (Libertarians included) need to stop blaming Liberals and vice versa. They count on us doing just that…

  • Neil F.

    Rob:
    We are not talking about a vast majority of all respected scientists around the world. We are talking about the IPCC, an international POLITICAL organization, James Hansen of NASA’s GISS who has been caught more than once changing his data, and Al Gore who is not a scientist at all. And all of them base their predictions on computer models.
    That is exactly what I have been trying to get through to you. You have accepted the premise without question that there is no debate and the science is settled. When there has ALWAYS been a debate, and the science has NEVER been settled.
    You believe your position to be the moral high ground. Your goal is to change the political system. Which is a goal shared by the people who push the global warming agenda. Its no wonder you agree with them.
    I agree that the system isn’t perfect, and could use improvement, but what you want is to abolish the system and supplant it with a socialist system. What makes you think that is the better way? It surely didn’t work out well for Russia. Did it? Or would you prefer a system like China’s? Well, that would be bad because then we would be building a coal plant every week.
    And as far as rich people and my socio-economic staus are concerned, rich people are rich because they took risks, worked hard, or invented products and services that people wanted or needed. They did not steal it from the poor. I am not rich because I am unwilling to take the risks, and make the sacrifices nesseccary to achive that kind of wealth. Plus it is a full time job just managing that kind of wealth, and I just like to keep things simple.
    As far as risking the future of mankind, I think imposing draconian measures to curb anthropogenic greenhouse emissions, which by all accounts will do little to nothing to affect global temperatures, will drastically reduce the standard of living that we have achieved. Which will result in the deaths of many innocent people.

  • Neil F.

    Rob:
    To illustrate that I have not arrived at what I think of the IPCC out of a vaccuum, I have put together just a few things that I have read on the subject. Of course, these only support my point of view. I’d like to see what you have to dispute them.
    (link)
    (link)
    http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=330
    (link)
    http://www.green-agenda.com/science.html

  • Rob N. Hood

    Neil- Russia and China were/are communist countries- not Socialist countries. and even now Russia is capitalist, with perhaps a little bit of European Socialism to keep the majority of their populace from straving to death. Even China has many capitalistic components, but Socialist it ain’t. You can’t even get these kind of basics right.

    And most rich people did not, and do not, work hard for it. Like you don’t work hard? I’m sure you do. Have you seen the way rich people live and “work”? You are naive Neil. I agree that some still get rich by starting from practically nothing etc., but rarely. What planet are you from?

    AND, yes, Neil there are thousands of scientists all over the world that agree something is occurring with climate, and that it is something to be concerned about. The deniers are in the vast minority. You can choose to believe the deniers, but is it wise? I think not. They are the ones with an agenda, as I have tried again and again to describe in different ways. But you are figuratively blind and deaf to anything other than your inflexible mind-set. You even say that curbing global warming will kill “many innocent people.” How the he– do you figure that?? What a bizarre statement.

    And I love this one- you say aren’t rich because you won’t take risks and make sacrifices, AND because managing all that money would up take too much of your time. You are funny Neil, but actually not competely stupid. The deck is stacked against someone like you or me getting rich, no matter how hard we tried or sacrificed and it is big buisness that makes sure of that. My ideal would be for the deck to be stacked a little more in favor of small business, that’s all. Nothing too scary or drastic. But people like you somehow imagine the worst (brainswashed??) and think “oh no it’s socialism!” and get all worked up and end of supporting the same system that keeps you in your place. And that system is Authoritarian, and since you support it you must like it. So again, I don’t know why you worry so much, even with Obama, it ain’t going to change anytime soon. It won’t until enough good citizens like you wake up and get pissed off like people like me have been for 30 years. And you will- it’s just a matter of time- you’ll figure it out. Maybe.

  • Neil F.

    Rob:
    Nice try. Socialism is the intermediate step between capitalism and communism according to Marxist-Lennonist theory. So, albeit imprecise, I wasn’t far off the mark. Close enough, as far as I’m concerned.

    http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?idarticle=9469
    “Following the U.S. Senate’s vote today on a global warming measure, there is a shift taking place in climate science. Many former believers in catastrophic man-made global warming have recently reversed themselves and are now climate skeptics. The names below are just a sampling of the prominent scientists who have spoken out recently to oppose the perceived alarmism of man-made global warming.”

    The deniers are the vast minority? Does this list look minor?
    http://www.petitionproject.org/signers_by_last_name.php?run=all
    And that is just U.S. scientists.

    As far as many innocent people dying. That is my prediction. If we get rid of fossil fuel power generation, the cost of energy will soar, and the availability of power to consumers will be limited. This will cause people to not be able to use things like furnaces and air conditioners. A subject that I am intimately involed with. I think it will cause deaths.
    To illustrate:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/22/international/europe/22FRAN.html
    And:
    (link)
    It’s not so bizarre if you look at it that way. Of course you wouldn’t, because you believe that energy will not be limited from the windmills and solar panels.

    Now back to the rich. I have an anecdote. Before I went to school, I did catering delivery for about three years. It was a small business, about 13 employees, and the owner, Stan, and his wife started it from scratch. They worked their rear ends off for 15 years operating and managing their business. They put in about 15-19 hours every day. They had moderate success and earned a few hundred thousand dollars a year.
    One day, Stan was made an offer to sell his company. He sold the business, lock, stock, and barrel, for 4 million dollars.
    Now, does that piss you off?
    Now what about guys like Bill Gates, and the owner of BET? Both worth billions. Do they piss you off too?
    I say good for them, and they deserve every penny.
    As for myself, I have had many ideas that could be turned into lucarative inventions. I have had several that have been, by other people after I had thought of them. For example, there is a radio in a car, I can’t recall if it was Audi or BMW, that will adjust the volume level according to ambient noise levels. I had that exact idea, except it was supposed to be walkie-talkies. I had the idea when I was a security guard at a hospital, and I could not hear the radio when walking through mechanical rooms, or when the ER was busy.
    I have many other ideas, but am unwilling to shell out the money for the patent process, and I’m afraid my ideas may be stolen. So, really the only thing holding me back is………Me!

  • Paul Wenum

    Rob, It is apparent you have never taken a risk in life. I came from nothing in the form of money, I earned it, it was not given to me on a silver platter, period! I’m not a “Trust Baby.” When our government starts putting undue taxes on the “Rich” (What do you define as rich), you stifle investment/creativity and RISK TAKING! That will be the downfall of America as we know it. The perception of “rich” will only change when you Rob, as well as others start getting electric bills four times what they were as of today, cars, internation travel, vacations with family to cost prohibitive to go. Only then will people wake up. When it hits the working man’s pocket book, and I’m one of them as well as family, then there will be a change. Hopefully with good, enlightened discourse by both sides of the equation.

    I would love to sit down and have an excellent discussion with you and Neil. I think it would be interesting. We would probably see the sun rise in the morning!

  • Rob N. Hood

    No, you still don’t get it. I’m not talking about people like you or that you describe. I’m talking about THE REAL ELITE RICH THE ONES THAT CONTROL YOUR LIFE AND MINE. Why is that such a hard concept for you people to understand?? They are using you to keep them in power, and you also suffer for it. So who’s the bigger fool, you or me?

  • Paul Wenum

    Rob , As I tell my family as well as the new grads, “You are the government!!!” Maybe at the voting box AFTER you KNOW what your candidate STANDS FOR , and follows through you will understand. I control my life PERIOD!! If I mess up it is not anyones fault but mine. I don’t blame some quote “rich” person! Suggest you take a risk and “get out of the box”

    If you put as much effort into work as you do telling people how bad/stupid etc that we are and have no knowledge of what is happeing, you Rob would be a very rich man! Good luck in your endeavors, however, one caveat “you must work hard!”

  • Paul Wenum

    Rob , As I tell my family as well as the new grads, “You are the government!!!” Maybe at the voting box AFTER you KNOW what your candidate STANDS FOR , and follows through you will understand. I control my life PERIOD!! If I mess up it is not anyones fault but mine. I don’t blame some quote “rich” person! Suggest you take a risk and “get out of the box”

    If you put as much effort into work as you do telling people how bad/stupid etc that we are and have no knowledge of what is happeing, you Rob would be a very rich man! Good luck in your endeavors, however, one caveat “you must work hard!”

  • Neil F.

    Rob:
    I’m just not that paranoid. Sure, there are people who have billions of dollars, and pull strings, and have a certain amount of control over certain things. But, even if you could identify, and single them out, and kill them, someone else will move in to fill the vaccuum. I think you are just jealous that it ain’t you. I mean, come on, you really seem to want to control what I think.
    And talking about the REAL RICH ELITE THAT CONTROL OUR LIVES. Who are they? Name one, and describe the power they have to manipulate us. Enlighten me.
    There is a great difference between you and I, Rob. This is one of them. I don’t feel like someone else is pulling strings and making me act as a puppet. There is only one person on this planet that controls my life. That person is me. I believe that our lives are the sum of THE CHOICES WE MAKE. You believe there is some grand, unseen, manipulation that forces you to do things, or act in certain ways. The rich elite is charting out our lives, and we have no say in which direction we are pushed.
    I think that is, aside from being paranoid, a total cop out. It lifts the burden of making hard choices off of your shoulders when you believe someone else is deciding for you.
    I’m not saying that there are no outside influences that have consequences that affect our lives in a direct manner. There are, but how we deal with them is up to each of us. These instances are where people come up with terms like “roll with the punches”, “pick yourself up by your bootstraps”, “life goes on” ect. The wrong way to handle these things is to blame it on the straw-man of the rich elite.
    Rob, I think you don’t understand something about me. I get it, I just reject it, because I think it’s a load of crap. And I come to my conclusions using critical thinking, not my emotions, which is what you seem to do.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking
    “ritical thinking employs not only logic but broad intellectual criteria such as clarity, credibility, accuracy, precision, relevance, depth, breadth, significance and fairness.”

  • Rob N. Hood

    Neil, you are such a hypocrite. You complain about the Liberals and Al Gore controlling stuff all the time. AND that the climate change believers are all in cahoots, i.e. conspiracy. And you say you are “not that paranoid?” My statement stands and anyone with a working brain understands it to be true. Go ahead and keep defending the rich elite- you are a sucker.

  • Neil F.

    Rob:
    I am waiting for the name of one of the rich elite that are controling us, and how they are controling us. I want specifics. Instead you insult me again.
    I offer evidence all the time to back up what I say. All you do is post liberal bloggers that make wild accusations and sling bullcrap about how conservatives control the media, and are following the writings of Goebels, and say that we’re brainwashed. And you offer that as your evidence. I am tired of this game.
    So put up, or shut up. I want something concrete. Give me a name of a rich elite that is controling us, and describe how they do it. Or, shut up.

  • Paul Wenum

    Neil, He’s a schill for AG. Like you said in the past postings, ignore him. As stated before, ignorance is you don’t know. Stupidity is that you will never learn even if GOD told you! I’m done with one sided discourse.

  • Neil F.

    Paul:
    I’m sure you’re right.

  • Rob N. Hood

    Paul (if thats your real name, prove it) did God tell YOU something? I’m all ears dude.

  • Paul Wenum

    Rob, I don’t hide. I’m on the web under my REAL NAME!. ARE YOU “ROB N HOOD???” Look it up nameless one that has no guts to show your true self. I am who I am and I’m not ashamed of my name. Are you? Must be “Nameless one.” By the way when I’m called “dude” I assume that I’m talking to someone that has never been in the trenches, your under 30 and you were taught what to read, see, hear and speak, a lemming they call it. Hasn’t changed since the 60’s “DUDE!”

  • Neil F.

    Rob:
    And the name of a rich elite, and how they control us? Avoiding the question? Or maybe you can’t answer it because YOU DON’T HAVE AN ANSWER!!!!!
    I got news for you Rob. Just because someone writes something, it doesn’t mean that it’s true. You claim to have an open mind, yet you disprove it every time you write something here.
    You assert that we are being controlled by the rich elite, but you can neither name one, nor describe how they do it.
    You have done something truly remarkable Rob, you have managed to stick your foot in your mouth while having your head stuck up your a**.

  • Neil F.

    Rob:
    In case my last post gets deleted, which I’m sure Dan will as soon as he reads it, I just want to say that I don’t appreciate the fact that you make a big deal out of the rich elite controlling us, and then you avoid my question about who and how.
    So from now on, I think there are only going to be two words that I say to you. Those words are PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Neil F.

    Are there two Rob N’ Hoods? One actually made some lucid points in that last post.
    As far as this being a big organized hoax, I always thought the conspiracy was one that started with the IPCC. Who I truly believe is out to screw America. Then people like Al Gore glommed on because they saw a way to make a fortune out of it. And then there are scientists who just went along with it to get grant money for their research projects. I never believed that the goals and motivations of the various parties involved were ever in unison. But I still believe that the main actors of the true conspiracy are the member nations of the IPCC. Where James Hanson, and Al Gore I think are just usefull idiots.
    But I am not focused on the conspiracy angle. My real problem with the whole thing started when Al Gore said the debate is over, and the science is settled. That just did not ring true in my ears. So I started to look at what scientists who disputed the findings of the IPCC had to say about it. They had legitimate points that they were trying to make, while the proponents of the AGW theory were doing their best to shut them up. And when I saw An Inconvenient Truth, it did not strike me as an informative “documentry”. It struck me as a fire-and-brimstone type message designed to scare-the-hell-out-of-you.
    From that day on, I rejected the AGW theory. I don’t really care if it’s a global conspiracy or not. I just think that it is wrong, and the “solutions” proposed to “fix” the problem are harmful to America.

  • Rob N. Hood

    You also just provided a better explanation than I’ve ever gotten out of you re: your certainty about this complex and yet to be resolved issue (in fact like most complex scientfic issues I don’t think is will ever be resoved 100%, that is of course excepting that given enough time, maybe not in our lifetimes, then time itself reveals what is fact or not- you know what I mean? The problems I’ve had with you and your posts are just what you state about Al Gore (that he is sure about it, that he believes what he believes to be FACT). That is why I have been a smart ass to you so much. It is hypocritical of you Neil. That’s all. I hate hypocrisy probably more than anything, and I try to “call it out” in whatever manner I think will do the trick. And based on your previous posts you APPEAR to be 100% certain about a lot of things re: this issue- just like Al Gore.

  • Paul Wenum

    Rob, Wait until Cap and Trade. Want to see inflation??. As to corporations, your church, non-profits, boy scouts, girl scouts, United way, hospitals are all corporation or LLC’s. Are corporations all bad? A corporation is nothing but a piece of paper, nothing more, nothing less. It is who is behind the corporations and their goals such as George Soros, Albert Gore, and others that scare me as well as you. Ring a bell Rob?? Go back to business Law 101.

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