From The Guardian
Hidden behind the save-the-world rhetoric of the global climate change negotiations lies the mucky realpolitik: money and threats buy political support; spying and cyberwarfare are used to seek out leverage.
The US diplomatic cables reveal how the US seeks dirt on nations opposed to its approach to tackling global warming; how financial and other aid is used by countries to gain political backing; how distrust, broken promises and creative accounting dog negotiations; and how the US mounted a secret global diplomatic offensive to overwhelm opposition to the controversial “Copenhagen accord“, the unofficial document that emerged from the ruins of the Copenhagen climate change summit in 2009.
Negotiating a climate treaty is a high-stakes game, not just because of the danger warming poses to civilisation but also because re-engineering the global economy to a low-carbon model will see the flow of billions of dollars redirected.
Seeking negotiating chips, the US state department sent a secret cable on 31 July 2009 seeking human intelligence from UN diplomats across a range of issues, including climate change. The request originated with the CIA. As well as countries’ negotiating positions for Copenhagen, diplomats were asked to provide evidence of UN environmental “treaty circumvention” and deals between nations.
It’s all about the money? Who knew?
Those E MAILS sure have thrown a monkey wrench into the whole “tax the world for a fabricated problem” plan. I am surprised that the US was pushing this so hard. I thought the government was starting to back away from the “sky is falling” eco-nazi’s. I suppose it was going on before the e-mails came into the light.
Hal, I think there is always more we don’t know. All we can do is fight what we do know, and hopefully some of the things we don’t know about will wither on the vine as a result.
The fabulously wealthy just absolutely can’t stand it that the rest of us should have some moderately decent quality of life instead of all that money getting crammed into their already overstuffed pockets. That’s why these sociopaths have been trying for thirty years to unravel the New Deal and more. That means breaking unions, that means trade deals shipping decent jobs overseas, that means changing the tax structure in their favor, that means deregulation, and that means privatization. And what it also means is killing popular entitlement programs like Social Security and Medicare the only way that seems possible: by creating a debt crisis that would give politicians plausible political cover for slashing these otherwise untouchable third-rail (you touch it, you die) benefits. It’s bad enough to have Republicans work so hard toward that end. Now, in the age of Clinton and Obama, Democrats are every bit as culpable.
Pay now or pay later. The deficit will grow even more quickly without the taxes owed by the wealthy, who are not patriotic in reality… We are fighting two wars. Never in the history of any country were people ever crazy enough to lower taxes during a war let alone two. The debt will be paid by robbing Social Security and everything else that helped make this country the best in the world. And you are all the true useful idiots- supporting all those while-collar crooks, politicians and corporate alike. If it all wasn’t so tragic it would be comedic. You will blame all the wrong people even while you stand in line at the soup kitchens, if we are lucky enough to have them…
We know greenhouse gases affect temperature. We know that the climate has continually changed throughout earths history. We know that evolution is the adaptation of organisms to change in environment, those most able to survive the environment are left to reproduce (along side this the DNA is rewritten(mutated)). We know that there is a close knit relationship between flora and fauna, they feed off each other and are responsible for the atmosphere (we breathe and eat that which plants expel and plants eat and breathe that which they expel, this is a balancing act and the reason life has been able to continue on earth for a billion years.
We also know the greed of mankind and we know that tax money collected finds its way to the population only after it is appropriated, by following the trail it is quite evident that those doing the collecting are profiting from the collection. Just look at the yachts, mansions, and lavish lifestyles of those in charge of saving the planet from agw.
If taxation fixed problems it was meant to fix there would be no inflation. Inflation happens when new money is created to supplement the money not available for projects such as research and development. This is what taxation is designed to take care of but it does not.
Inflation and taxation are not meant to coexist and yet they do. Work that out and you’ll know what global warming is all about. Now I’m heading out into -20 degC environment.
So you don’t like paying taxes- gee that’s surprising… Did you know that the richest people aren’t paying their fair share and if they did the middle class wouldn’t be bled to death like we are? Why does your anaysis re: this only go so far, and then stop dead? It appears your analysis re: global warming does the same. Why is that do you suppose?
People tend to blame governments for the state of the world today. This is not true. The blame should be placed on the most elite, the most intelligent individuals of us. It is the top elitists who feel like they’re better than the rest that implement tactical plans to extract as much as possible while keeping assets(people) happy enough and/or oppressed enough to carry out their plans for them. It is the greedy geniuses of the world that are creating a horrible inhumane environment for the rest of the population. They are not the top 1%, they’re not the poor, not the middle class, not the upper class either, they are in a category of their own, there exists less than 1000 of these individuals worldwide. The world is heading into a negative area, danger is just around the corner, the world will come to an end, it won’t be 2012, or a natural disaster, or aliens, or any crazy theory some tin cap wearing conspiracist makes up, the world as we know it will end through the uprise of the poor, middle, and upper class people who are fed up with the ugly world we are facing today. This is your true 2012 prophecy. It is people like us who are fed up with the state of the world today.
Bill c36 has been introduced in Canada, as a part of the bill police no longer require warrants to enter private properties, nor do the need suspect that a crime is taking place. To me this is the true definition of a policed state. Oppression is the driving force that is forcing the non-educated(poor), the educated(middle class), and well-educated(upper class) to work and produce. The elite have the world running in the way they want it to be, they are the controlling forces behind everything, governments, industries, you and I.
I for one have had enough of this inhumane treatment. I am not a number, I am not an asset, I am a human being, no better and no worse than you.
The elite have devised smokescreens, names like “illuminati”, “Freemasons”. These funny names make them sound unreal, only a conspiracist would say such silly things. These names help them stay in the shadows by the sheer ridiculousness of their sound. They need to be stopped, humans are not assets to profit from. They are destroying the natural way of things.
I for one am not against taxes, I am not against them if they are going to help my fellow man. It is the elite of the world, the ones with everything treating people as assets that are against taxes. I believe we should all help our communities and help our fellow man, we all need to come together and save this world, our children’s lives are at stake, I do not want my son to be a number, I don’t want my son breaking himself down so some elitist a**hole can afford a personal jet to take him to his yacht on his personal island. In the grand scheme of things this elitist will ‘legally’ bribe an upper class government official into passing a bill which will result in tighter parameter for my son to operate in. Do you want this for your children?
And yet with all that intelligence you still blame Liberals and think it is Liberals behind all of the above? That is mystifying to me. I believe there are some who profess to be such but mostly we are talking about BIG business and their boot-lickers that are in the Government who do what the elite tell them to do. Which is to steal from the middle class and give it to the ultra wealthy elite. Do you disagree with that analysis?
People, as I are “assets” to the community as well as you. Your son will be a “number” only if he allows it. “Legally” bribe? A bribe is illegal of course that depends on who our where you make the bribe. Afganistan? Iran? Russia, et al. I don’t believe in conspiracy theories. Always wondered exactly what or whom is an “elitist” He or she that makes more than me? Nobody ever gives me an exact/precise answer no matter how many times I ask. It is all subjective my friend. I don’t have a jet nor fly to unknown islands but my brother is a pilot and a school teacher probably making $55,000.00 a year? Is he an elitist? I believe in the natural ways of things being a hunter/fisherman/marksman. In the grand scheme of things today I don’t worry. Trust me. The people will always prevail. That’s why we have a republic and can say what we both just said without recourse from the unknown forces that some profess. Finally, taxes are for securing the county, state and the republic where you and I reside never forget that my friend.
See above Paul. Your continued professed ignorance of who the elite are is a very lame and tired old excuse. Plus your defense of taxes is hilarious (you sound like me). Don’t tell that to a tea bagger they might stomp on your head!
And no, for the umpteenth time, someone making 55 K IS NOT AN ELITIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You never answered the question. What is your definition of an “Elitist?” Yes, I can look it up. Need your definition. I’m sure it is entirely different.
Sorry Paul, I thought your question was rhetorical. Since I’ve used pawns to describe the assets of the elite I’ll continue to define it in this manner;
Chess: the pawns are the least valuable of the pieces, pawns in a chess game translate into the poor or lower class individuals, these are your cashiers, cleaning staff and fast-food employees; the middle class in the chess game are the specialized pieces, in real life rooks, knights and bishops are machinists, managers and police officers; the upper class are the king and the queen, in real life the king and queen translate into surgeons, scientists and politicians, they are the most powerful of the games pieces.
So who are the elites? You see all the board pieces have been covered, the elites are not pieces in the game at all, the elites are the ones dictating the play, the elites in the game of chess are the players themselves. They control the whole board dictating the play. The chess player is the elitist in this scenario, the objects (game pieces) are the lower, middle, and upper classes.
As you see the elites control everyone, from the rich to the poor, they are not defined by monetary value like the pieces they control, the elites are defined by the power they hold over the poor the middle-class and the rich. If you had to place a monetary value on the elites I would define them as the multi-billionaires.
Bravo! Never was a better description offered here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And Paul what you say below is pure delsusion, brought about thru either narcissism or brain-washing, or both.
I play chess. That said, I was a pawn at birth but in our republic I can become a King if I work hard to earn it as well as the Master that controls the board on which it’s played. If that makes me an elitist, so be it. Bill Gates was once a pawn. Is he evil? I have a client that started his business in his garage. He’s now a billionaire. Is he an elitist? No, he worked his tail off and continues to this day and works harder now then he ever did but I know he smiles as he works because he EARNED IT! I guess that I must then be an elitist because I like to earn as much as I possibly can for my family and my families future? I don’t put people in boxes nor stereo-type as you. We all have choices in life. I simply take the path less traveled then most people do.
Bill Gates is a genius, his iq is in the 160 range (his occupational iq is immeasurable-in the 200 range I’d say). Does he deserve more than your average 100 iq individual, if that doesn’t hit a soft spot, what about a person born with down syndrome, someone with an iq in the 70 range, does this individual deserve less in life because genetically he is inferior? What if this down syndrome individual was your child? Do you think your child deserves the quality of life that Bill Gates intellect affords him?
These are societal questions, I believe I am no better and no worse than any other human in this world, I don’t think I should have more in life than someone with an iq lower than mine, nor should I have less than someone with an iq higher than mine.
In the words of Ben Parker (spidermans uncle) “with great power comes great responsibility”, this is the basis of societies, just like family units gather to take care of child with down syndrome, so should the elites of the world gather and care for those living in conditions sub-par to theirs. They don’t. The elites are antisocial. They can afford to take care of those who are barely surviving yet they don’t. I cannot feel empathy towards people like that. You can praise Bill Gates all you like, I don’t envy him, I feel sorry for him as a human being, and I despise his inactions, he has the capital to save every man woman and child in need, and yet he chooses not to. He is no hero, he is no one to be idolized. He could use his power to help humanity and yet what he chooses to do is the opposite.
He is not a product of hard work, I can show you hard working people who break their bodies (literally) to care for their families, these are true hero’s, Bill Gates is genetically gifted intellectually, he’s not a product of hard work and he is no hero. If he saved those that needed helping that would make him someone to be idolized.
V have you ever heard of the Gates foundation? I believe it is the largest charitable foundation in the world. It’s job is to give away Bill’s money. Your right! Bill Gates is a greedy pig! (sarcasm) I have a question for you V, do you think Bill could walk into North Korea and insist on feeding the poor there? Could Bill bring his wallet to Dar fur and take care of all the children there? Is Bill a Western Union away from feeding China’s down trodden? I don’t think it is that easy. First and foremost he must get through customs, whats going to happen when Ol’ Billy tries to walk through customs with 800 Million dollars for the poor? Simple, the government takes the money and buy’s cool new f14 Tomcats with laser sighting and a DVD player in the back for the co-pilot. Your notion that the rich could feed the poor of the world is childish and simplistic. Time to grow up buddy. Welcome to the Climate Change world!
I guess Bill Gates is not one of the bad ones, thank you for coming in and clearing his name, I’ve really painted him in a negative way here. Not all those with money are bad people. I’ve explained the elites as being ones with power over mankind. Not all men with power abuse it, but the abuse is taking place. People are suffering, that is not what civilized societies are about.
You’re a wiser man than I Hal, thank you for showing me the error of my way. The state of the world today is apparent, things are not fine, but I should have really learned more about the man before I slandered him for all to see. I apologize Mr. Bill Gates, you are at least making an attempt at helping those in need.
The thing is though, there is not that many of us here on earth (7 billion people), it cannot be impossible to cover the necessities of those that cannot do it themselves. I’m sure you’re right Hal, it is not easy, if we all take responsibility though I’m sure we can put an end to poverty and free those most vulnerable from hardship, isn’t that the very definition of humanity?
With the intention to bring this discussion back full circle, I agree that helping the poor is a noble thing to do. The more people do to help others the better! I do not think it is ok to FORCE people to give up a portion of their income to help causes they do not believe in though. It is no longer charitable giving then, it is theft. I do not like to judge what others give to charity but if you follow the who’s who in the charity giving party you will find that our old pal Al Gore is consistently on the very low end of the giving. I would think a Nobel Prize winner might be more forthright on helping others, but that is not the case. It is his to give or not to give, that is the beauty of freedom. I just think if you want to put cross-hairs on a public figure you can find plenty of them in the pro-global warming circle. The ambiguous “elite” is so …passe.
V- you are wiser than all of us. I knew that about Bill Gates, but he could do more, and he also got where he is today by using ruthless methods to create a virtual monopoly for his products. So you see, things are really never black and white, which is how the Right needs to see the world. And more often than not towards their biased perception.
And just what have you contributed to the world other than watching “Spider Man.?” A man that quotes “Spider Man” movies has a serious problem. I’m sure that you have really helped the down trodden haven’t you. What charity do you give to other than Moveon.org, et al? Spin your web someplace else. You bore me.
Well said Hal, Keep it up. Back to the subject at hand. The falsehood of “Global Warming/climate change.”
Funny Paul- you are the most boring person here. And Hal, saying the “elite” is passe, is so….. inane, (to be kind). I can’t believe any intellectually honest adult in this world could utter such a statement.
BLUF – Rob is juvenile in the way he argues and brings nothing to the table. V on the other hand when he explains something at least it develops the convesation. I agree with very little he says but I anve not seen him just insult peoples intlegance and think that is proving a point.
V I think what you are missing here is way bigger on the scale of humanity. If you want an unstoppable corrupt world let people run it. V think of your value system. The morals that you try to live by. I picked the word “try” on purpose. You can not live to yourown moral high ground. No one can. We violate our own sets of values and morals every day. So how can you expect anyone else to live up to them. Then look to the highest standards in the universe. The ones Christ set for us. No one can live up to them. Not one. What is my point. Charity has to come from the heart. You can not legislate it, Tax it, Or force it. The poor and suffering have been in this world for over 4000 years. Poverty will not end untill Devine intervention takes place. My beliefe being Christian is that is when Christ returns. I strive to be like Christ every day. I fail every day. All Christians do. My bigest chariatable act every year is to work hard and pay my employees a fair wage and gorw my Company so I can hire more Pawns. I need them. If I have to cut one pawn to save 4 others Then I will do it. I don’t like it and it eats at me when I have to. I personally, Corporatly, Faithfully and as a family Participate in Charity thru my church the local Red Cross and World vision. I give nothing extra to the Government because God has made it possiable for me to be so blessed in buisness and I dont want to turn over the resourses he allows me to an Government that is irrsponsiable in its management of money. God does tell us to render unto Cesar what is Ceasars so I faithfull pay taxes. But I will not support anyone who wants to place Charity in the hands of the GOVT…. Nor anyone who wants to break up big buisness because Thru them the econimic life blood flows….
Sir Knot, you are correct as others have said to me for the last year. Rob N Hood, as well as this alleged V are here not for discourse simply for disruption. Similiar to ELF, PETA, MOVEON.ORG, et al. That said, all sides should be heard right. wrong, etc..
Jerk, just because I utter some harsh truth re: others statements does not make me juvenile. You try to do the same, and so that makes you a hypocrite. Why not challenge my statement that to say the “elite” have no significant impact or bearing on these discussions is truly inane (note that I did not say “insane”, which if I had done so would MAYBE be construed as juvenile).
That was the criticism, and yet you choose instead to attack me, hypocritically. Is that juvenile??? Perhaps it is…. but I know you will ignore that observation and/or simply attack again..
Thank you for proving my point. You see in your last post you had no fact you just called me a hypocrite. Yes I have attacked you. As you have attacked me. What make yours Juvenile is that you cry like a baby when you are scolded. I defend my position and fight back with facts and my own opinion. That is what free speech is all about. The right to express differing opinions. Sorry you don’t get the privilege of censoring me. It just isnâ€™t in the cards.
Ok – Off to another Tea Party Meeting to exercise my right to Free Speech…. I will make a point to denounce Global warming and hopefully protect some Jobs that I have created. Which is exactly 14 more than the POTUS has created this Calendar year.
KNOT – 14
POTUS – 0
Whatever. You can make yourself believe you aren’t a hypocrite and/or juvenile at times but that don’t make it so. That is what is wrong with the Right mind. And you and the rest prove that point over and over again. Even your final word is highly juevnile in the sense that it is grandiose.
BTW I have defended small and medium sized business here MANY times and in different ways in the past, but to no avail. The people here like to hear things one way, and their minds simply do NOT change, nor can they seem to see shades of grey.
Simple question to you. Why do you post on this site? according to you, our “minds simply do NOT change,” I took a break from celebration for birth or our Savior with family to answer your simple normal bombastic response. I hope that you have a relaxing evening and Merry Christmas? Or is that too much to ask?
I am so happy that you seem concerned about my welfare. Perhaps I am not Christian, what then pray tell?? The Right are mostly examples of extreme ego-centrism. I have been trying to see any daylight here that’s all. It would give me some hope for this once great country. Why do you post?
In my opinion only, you will see no concensus from the majority of peple that post on this sight on your point of view. Again, my opinion/observation only. You seem like a bright lad, why the attitude problem? Why do I post? Because of people with your mindset. Same as you I assume.
Truly it seems to be an exercise in futility. That we can agree on.
I am someone who, like some other Liberals here and there, are determined, for the sake of a better future for all, to challenge the “wisdom” and rhetoric of the Right. The Left hasn’t done this very well in the past, and still continues to lag behind the loud-mouths on the Right. But we are starting to fight back because we have no other choice. We are sick of the lies, the evil, and the greedy criminal element that has hijacked this country and will take it to a sad and unnecessary demise, unless we start fighting (and I don’t mean physically- most Liberals are also Pacifists, to one degree or another).
You take your path and I will take mine. Someday our paths may meet.
Perhaps. For the sake of argument… I would like to outline what I have learned about Libertarians and others of their persuasion. It is this: they want to take care of their own selves and family with out any interference and also without contributing to the “welfare” of others. Accurate? Again for the sake of the argument I will say Yes. You can correct me if I’m wrong.
I personally feel that way from time to time, and I am a fairly private person, and like most people I don’t want to be messed with unecessarily. Also like many people I don’t like paying the amount of taxes that I pay. I especially HATE it going to “Defense” which really means WAR. So you see, other than what we don’t like our money being spent on, we agree on a lot.
I hope to add below what I think a Libertarian country would look like. Gotta go for now…
Everyone fends for him or herself. To cut to the bottom line- some do well, well enough that to ease their conscience (if they have one) by give to a charity and/or church to “help the poor.” Or they don’t even do that. The funny (not really) thing is this type of “utopia” has already been tried and failed. Old merry England for example, and many other similar societies in the past. The vast majority suffer greatly while the elite sit pretty. Old people and the sick die in the streets, sometimes even the otherwise healthy die too. They get sick, and cant afford medical treatment. Oh well, too bad too sad. That’s the way it goes. We would have beggars in the streets everywhere. Like you always say, look at other countries today even. We are becoming more and more like Mexico everyday. That is very sad, and scary. It is aleady happening here, and you can’t even see it. We are closer to a truly Libertarian society since it’s inception. It wasn’t supposed to go this was. The founding fathers, most of them, warned us about it. We failed- we let the military-corporate industrial complex eat us alive. We exist on what they spit out. And we vote for their henchmen and women. It makes me sick.
It is apparent that you have no idea of reality. Your “private person” sheltered life shows through and your posts repulse the average person. Karl and Vladimir must be extremely proud.
Do you disagree with my brief outline of a Libertarian existence? If so, just say so. And then it would be nice if you pointed out specifically what you think I have wrong about it. I believe that is the way these posting forums work. Am I mistaken about that Paul? Or are you only capable of the ad hominem?
Waiting for what? Reality?
Zing! Right on schedule. Really Paul, you aren’t that easy are you?? I really do want you to answer the question. Anyone, actually, if Paul refuses. Jerk…?Dan…? Where are ya Hal?
When did you quit beating you wife? Ops, you cannot answer that question can you. Neither can I. Quit playing games and get back on point. You forgot one Alinski tactic that I will not divulge. Will let you think and research. You are starting to do that I assume?
Do you honestly believe that a Libertarian existence would be different than what I described? Simple, easy question… But no yes/no anwers please. I’d like some detail such as I gave.
Isn’t this what you all are all about??!! Don’t you want people like me to know the big secret behind Libertarianism?? and why it’s so WONDERFUL?! Well- now’s your chance. I am open-minded, but not stupid. I criticize logically and rationally. Does that scare you?
Wow- no takers… ok, then. That settles that.
Nothing is ever “settled.” Trust me!
Your dazzling rebuttle says volumes. So what is it about Libertarianism that embarrasses you? The self-centeredness? The child-like fixation on magical thinking? The greed? The lack of empathy? The unChristian aspect? The idea that reversing time to the 17/1800’s is currently impossible? Or perhaps all of the above? Please add to the list if I left something out.
I thinks you need a vacation. Seriously.
You are on a vacation so what’s your excuse? Feel free to respond to the original challenge instead of posting drivel.
Uh huh. Thought so.