I donâ€™t feel hugely energetic right now in terms of writing anything very complicated. As a simple exercise, I decided to quickly revisit the everchanging Hansen adjustments, a topic commented on acidly by E.M. Smith (Chiefio) in many posts â€“ also see his interesting comments in the thread at a guest post at Anthonyâ€˜s, a post which revisited the race between 1934 and 1998 â€“ an issue first raised at Climate Audit in 2007 in connection with Hansenâ€™s Y2K error.
As CA readers recall, Hansenâ€™s Y2K error resulted in a reduction of US temperatures after 2000 relative to earlier values. The change from previous values is shown in red in the graphic below; the figure also shows (black) remarkable re-writing of past history since August 2007 â€“ a rewriting of history that has increased the 2000-6 relative to the 1930s by about 0.3 deg C.
This impacts comparisons made in 2007 between GISS and CRN1-2 stations. At the time, it was noted that GISS adjustments for UHI resulted in the GISS US temperature anomaly having quite a bit in common with a TOBS average from Anthony’s CRN1-2 stations. Critics of Anthony’s surfacestations.org project commented on this rather smugly – too smugly given the large differences with NOAA and CRU versions in the US and the incoherence of Hansen’s adjustments outside the US. The post-2007 adjustments to GISS adjustments change this. The increased trend in the GISS US statistic comes at the expense of reconciliation with CRN1-2 stations: the trends no longer cohere.
I am not a statistician. But what I get from this is that there are people out there so intent on convincing others that they are right, that they are willing to sacrifice any and all professional integrity to make that happen by making adjustments to the temperature data to show a warming trend where one does not actually exist. Call it confirmation bias if you must but this is exactly the kind of thing that makes me question the whole theory of AGW. If the facts don’t prove the theory then the facts must be changed, and adjusted to prove the theory. That is ridiculous and should not go on. But as you can see that is exactly what appears to be going on
Neil, Agree. We are not statisticians, nor people of science. They baffle with their BS. Pure and simple. I understand the it is the coldest it has ever been in England in over 1000 years? My God, bring on global warming! It’s getting cold. Where’s Albert when we need him? Oops, that’s right it is not a “Convenient” time to say global warming?/Climate change? What is it? He’s still attempting to count his billions of carbon credits. “Happy New Year” Neil and I hope that you are feeling better after the loss of your Mother. My prayers are with you and your family in your time of mourning. Just remember that she is looking down on you with a gentle smile on her face. That’s how I see my father after his passing. Take care my friend.
I think it’s supposed to be called “global climate disruption” now, but that is subject to change…….. I think the name for it changes more rapidly than the climate does. I think the next one will be “warming induced cooling”, or “we never said warming would cause warming”, or something equally ridiculous.
As for Eyore, I think he can’t afford to produce another movie right now as he took it in the shorts when the CCX folded.
And thanks for the kind words. Devastating as it is, the living must continue on with their lives. Which is why I’m back here, and I am going to work today as well.
It is frustrating that Hanson continues to “adjust” the numbers but gives no data as to how he accomplishes it. What ever happened to adding up all the temps and dividing it by the number of reading stations? Wouldn’t that be the common sense way to get an accurate daily temp reading? It is always buried deep inside some algebraic nightmare to obfuscate the actual reading. “The trick…” is obvious to the people that are paying attention. Barry is using the EPA to cover Hanson’s rear and push his insistence on redistributing the money we all work hard for. Boils my blood! Neil, I wish you well! Just remember “Man made warming causes cooling that will raise the global temperature while at the same time turning Europe into a glacier.” That should cover it.
I think you’ve nailed it!!!
Y’all remember when Paul laughed about some study that referred to the “Liberal brain”? Well, I actually didn’t question it at the time, although I now don’t remember what the study supposedly indicated. But, better late then never, here’s another one:
A study at the University College of London, in the UK, has found that conservatives’ brains have larger amygdalas than the brains of liberals. Amygdalas are responsible for fear and other “primitive” emotions. At the same time, conservatives’ brains were also found to have a smaller anterior cingulate — the part of the brain responsible for courage and optimism.
I love brain research…
Did Jim Hansen adjust those results too?
Hansen should be jailed for fraud. His work dis-credits NASA.
Only in the UK and Robbie B you wouldn’t know because you haver neve been there to experience the different cultures. Boy, I can tell. They definiteley have a different mindset. Similiar to “Global Warming?” Just ask “Charles” he will tell you as well as others. I read the study and and found it funny. Isn’t it ironic it came out just after the “liberal” study?
Right Paul- they must of went right to work on it, as soon as the Liberal study came out, just to cover it up. Buuuuut….research like these are being conducted all the time, and it takes years for a good study to be able to be at the point to be written up and disseminated. But I’m sure you knew that. Like I said I forget exactly what the Liberal study you posted indicated about Liberals but apparently you took that one at face value and the one above not so much. Why is that? Gosh, a bias on your part?? Nah!!!
There are MANY unflattering studies about the right-wing personality, btw.
Rob I saw that study and the way I read it is that conservatives are moral loyal and rational and liberals were flaky and prone to flip-flopping. Hey, you read it your way I read it mine. I have been to Europe also and Paul is right. Different culture will give different results, I searched and searched…no sign of Hanson. We should check the e-mails!
it seems to me that the studies reffered to above, (both of Liberals and of Conservatives), are proof positive that any study can be skewed to the view of the person, or persons doing the study.
Ther are many types of research bias. Here is an article about some of them. http://www.experiment-resources.com/research-bias.html I suggest everyone reads this before continuing down this path. Or better yet, we could forget about these stupid, politically motivated studies and talk about Jim Hansen fudging the numbers.
Sure Hal… ok.
Here in America today, Greedy Old Guys (GOG) tend to be rather angry at the way things are going — but theirs is not the generation that should be getting truly pissed off. Many of the OWGs are doing fine financially. They have nothing to complain about.
Their walkers and scooters are paid for by MediCare.
Their pensions come regularly in the mail.
Social Security buoys them up; many of them have lots of savings left over from the good times; they have home equity to fall back on and they don’t have to worry about finding a job cause their retired and taken care of by the social welfare state, the one that money denounce as socialism as they live off of it.
All that these Greedy Old Guys have to do nowadays is take an occasional cruise to the Bahamas, enjoy their golden years and bitch about how hard life is — until they die and can buy themselves a fabulously expensive new coffin. They got theirs. Why the complaints? They should be as happy as pigs in a trough.
It’s the youth of America who should be really pissed off.
Their sweet little old grandfathers have just sold them all down the river without even a second thought.
“Hey, Grandpa! Where’s my education, where’s my job, where’s my clean air, where’s my future?”
“Sorry, sonny. I bought a few wars and got my tax cuts and socialized programs — even though socialized programs area a Communist plot — with that money instead.”
Nostalgia……THE TELEGRAPH reports on “Climate Change” scams from 2009:
They are the first people in the country alleged to have made money through a so-called â€œcarouselâ€ VAT fraud involving carbon emissions allowances.
Under an EU scheme designed to reduce pollution, companies producing large amounts of carbon dioxide are given an allowance for the amount they can emit.
If they want to emit more, they must buy extra allowances – which are commonly known as â€œcarbon creditsâ€ – from companies who have some left over.
One credit allows the buyer to emit one ton of carbon. The global carbon market is worth about Â£77bn a year, according to the World Bank.
It is thought that the suspects imported large volumes of the carbon credits VAT-free from other countries.
Seven arrests in suspected Â£38m carbon credit fraud20 Aug 2009
Fraudsters target tax on carbon credits20 Aug 2009
‘Secret agenda to score adoptions’20 Aug 2009
A breath of fresh air for Britain’s airports20 Aug 2009
Ministers at climate change conference flying to luxury beach resort20 Aug 2009
Green restrictions on gas ‘could endanger UK supply’20 Aug 2009
They then allegedly sold the credits to British businesses â€“ moving them around tax jurisdictions like a â€œcarouselâ€ â€“ having marked up the price with VAT.
The businesses purchasing the credits would then have been able to claim the VAT back from HM Revenue & Customs. However, it is alleged that the suspects never gave the VAT money to HMRC, leaving the taxman out of pocket.
The fraud is more typically carried out in a similar way with electrical goods, including mobile phones and computer chips.
It is alleged that the proceeds were used to fund lavish lifestyles of the people involved with the alleged fraud. The suspects are thought to have spent some of the proceeds of their alleged fraud on luxury cars, an HMRC spokesman said.
The spokesman said that six men and a woman were arrested following early morning raids in Gravesend, Hounslow, Southall, Isleworth and Erith in west London and Kent. A total of 130 officers raided 27 business and residential properties.
He added that officers from Europol, the European Union law enforcement organisation that handles criminal intelligence, was helping with the inquiry.
Les Beaumont, the HMRCâ€™s deputy director of criminal investigation said: “HMRC investigates all criminal attacks on the tax system, halting theft of revenue, gathering evidence and supporting prosecutors in bringing offenders before the courts.
“We always aim to recover the proceeds of crime, restoring that money to the public purse where it belongs. That is our intention in this and similar cases.â€
Last month the Government removed VAT from carbon credits traded within Britain to prevent the risk of such frauds. The French government had already done so following evidence of fraud there.
Mr Beaumont said: “The Government took decisive action to prevent this type of fraud recurring by zero rating carbon credits for VAT.”
The Netherlands has introduced rules forcing the buyer of carbon credits, rather than the seller, to take responsibility for paying tax.
HMRC can already require buyers of the credits to prove that they took â€œreasonable careâ€ to check they were dealing with a bona fide company, and withhold VAT refunds if it is not satisfied.
Righto Yeeeech!!!! Thank you. Excellent post.
Hansen fudging the numbers is a better subject. Hansen will never change until he is let go and the media turns against him. Of course that will be the day.
Does Jim Hansen think he is doing the right thing here? Is he unconciously doing this because he really, truly believes that human beings are causing a catastrophic change to the climate, and that burning fossil fuels is evil? Or does he know exactly what he is doing, and does it because he is trying to advance a political agenda? And advancing that agenda advances his career? I mean the effect is the same either way, but I don’t know if I should despise him, or feel sorry for him.
Yes that is the question. Is Hanson “not right” in the head due to a medical condition or is it just stubborn personality traits and greed that drive him? I have a hard time drumming up sympathy for him, even if it was beyond his control. He has damaged too much of society as it stands, I will not be cutting him a break even if it turns out he had a total meltdown and ended up at Hal’s Happy House in Therabuke Iowa. (home of the fighting stooges) Don’t feel sorry for him Neil. He will get the attention he deserves sooner or later.
I really knew the answer before I asked the question. I don’t feel sorry for him either.
I apologize, I have spelled his name wrong consistently throughout this post, I just realized that and I will correct it in the future. (Handson?)
I spell Al Gore, Eyeore. I saw no problem with it.
Some people even though they know they are wrong are to recalcitrant to state publically that they are wrong. (Lose respect,face, self esteem etc.) That’s my take. Take it for what it’s worth.
Hanson has damaged society?? Really?!
The faÃ§ade is crumbling. And as more and more people realize that they have been used and robbed, we are moving swiftly from Huxley’s ‘Brave New World’ to Orwell’s ‘1984’. The public, at some point, will have to face some very unpleasant truths. The good-paying jobs are not coming back. The largest deficits in human history mean that we are trapped in a debt peonage system that will be used by the corporate state to eradicate the last vestiges of social protection for citizens, including Social Security. The state has devolved from a capitalist democracy to neo-feudalism. And when these truths become apparent, anger will replace the corporate-imposed cheerful conformity.”
Good job there, Greedy Old Guys. You’re robbing from your grandchildren — and you don’t even need a gun to do it.
You love to indulge in class hate donâ€™t you. You hate Elitists, big Corporations, GOG’s, conservatives, Tea Baggers(as you call them), and basically anyone who does not use the same brain parts as you do.
Yet when someone you admire gets caught red handed telling a lie you will defend them to the death and divert the criticism towards any one of those groups I mentioned.
Hanson published findings in a study about Global Warming. He used scientific charts and lingo to support his findings. Hundreds of â€œscientistsâ€ signed on to his assertions. Then when real scientists started to challenge the data and results. Oh no â€¦â€¦ it is time to hide the truth. He lied, and got caught red handed. He may not have wanted the public trust but he asked for it and got it. Now he is disgraced and the price is all science is questionable.
But some how I am sure you will twist this into a class warfare issue and the Tea party or GOGâ€™s will catch the blame.
)—-> Thwak!!!!! Bullseye!
Bullseye? Really? Here goes: #1. I wasn’t defending anyone. #2. I am very particular about who I disagree with and/or dislike, and have been pretty clear about that all along. #3. “Hate” is your word not mine. #4. And class hate is also disengenuous, for the same reason as #3. #5. There is PLENTY of evidence, both obvious and not so obvious about the culpability of the wealthy elite subverting democracy for greed. You people are the ones who choose to be blind to these aspects of reality.
And Neil says “bullseye”… sheesh… Jerk missed the entire side of the barn.
Perhaps now is the time you can tell me explicitly (without diverting the topic to me) what Hansen has “damaged.” I’ll wait…
Waaaaaaaaaaah! Do you need a hankie?
Actually I do, but that’s because I have a cold, not because I’m whining like a teething waif!
Sir Knot. Thank you! We all needed that. Welcome back. Enjoy your excellent responses.
That is exactly what I was trying to say jerk a knot! Yours was much better! Although, I think its spelled “Hansonne”. Just having some fun with it.
It’s actually Hansen, but who cares? We know who he’s talking about. Hansomme, hand-some, hand-one, hamburgerler, underhand-sen, whatever. Those would all be acceptable to me.
THAT’S IT! UNDERHAND-SEN! I LOVE IT!!
Glad I could help!
“Remember all the media brouhaha about global warming causing hurricanes that commenced following the devastating U.S. 2004 season? Opportunities to capitalize on those disasters were certainly not lost on some U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change officials. A special press conference called by IPCC spokesman Kevin Trenberth announced “Experts warn global warming likely to continue spurring more outbreaks of intense activity.”
But there was a problem. Christopher Landsea, a top U.S. expert on the subject, repeatedly notified the IPCC that no research had been conducted to support that claim–not in the Atlantic basin, or in any other basin. After receiving no replies, he publicly resigned from all IPCC activities. And while the press conference received tumultuous global media coverage, Mother Nature didn’t pay much attention. Subsequent hurricane seasons returned to average patterns noted historically over the past 150 years, before exhibiting recent record lows with no 2010 U.S. landfalls.”
“A recent study conducted by U.S. and Dutch scientists that appeared in the journal Nature Geoscience concluded that previous estimates of Greenland and West Antarctica ice melt rate losses may have been exaggerated by double. Earlier projections apparently failed to account for rebounding changes in the Earth’s crust following the last Ice Age (referred to as “glacial isostatic adjustment”).”
Neil, like the site posted. Larry Bell should be knighted. As to Rob’s question as to “what has Hansen damaged?” Credibility in the science community. Very simple.
I don’t know about being knighted, but I did buy his new book, Climate Of Corruption.
Oh, ok then. Is that such a horrible and/or expensive thing to that average person like you and me?? Not really. Only the thing it- scientists are bought and paid for all the time by the Right-wing, to advacne their agenda, and yet you don’t get all huffy about their credibility. You people are so hypocritical and illogical.
So are you saying “Right Wing” scientists are pushing an agenda that would destroy every facet of life in America and bankrupt almost every other country on the globe? I thought that would have been an agenda I would have heard of…I’m at a loss for what agenda is large enough to encompass every citizen on the planet.
No I am saying they are pushing an agenda that makes more money for the wealthy elite. Your beliefs about “liberal” scientists is far-fetched to say the least. This isn’t rocket science.
Hate is the word I use to describe your views and mantra. It only takes reading what you publish to see it. Yes it is my word. However the shoe fits you perfectly. Please don’t act shocked about what you see in the mirror. You defend Hansen by attempting to divert the heat off of him by using a tactic my little boy uses with me. “But Dad, Billy’s Dad lets him do that”…… I tell him sorry. Billy is wrong and Billy’s Dad is wrong for letting him…. 2 Wrongs don’t make a right. Don’t diminish his responsibility for his actions. If there is such a thing as bought and paid for “right wing scientists” please point out there mistakes. Hansen destroyed his baseline (MAJOR NO NO IN THE SCIENTIFIC PROCESS) and manipulated data to show what he wanted. All of that time and Money wasted. Just think of all the good that money could have done searching for the cure to cancer, housing the homeless, or feeding the hungry. His little masquerade caused billions of dollars to be spent on junk science. Regulations on businesses and industry that really were not accomplishing anything but causing the cost of business to go up …. hence the cost of products to go up….. hence less money in your pocket at the end of the day. You often tell us to wake up… YOU WAKE UP!!!! Get your head out of the books get some world experience. I think you should stop working for someone and start your own business. Everyday love in going to work knowing that I have employees that make me money and take home a great paycheck to care for their family.
You weren’t around when I stated more than once that I am open-minded and if/when you Rightys come up with something compelling and/or logically and rationally truthful I could/would change my mind. In fact, I especially remain hopeful that you are correct about this issue. But no one has changed my mind yet. One reason for that I suppose is my theorem that since you Rightys are wrong about everything else I can think of, then I must remain skeptical about this issue as well.
As for the accusation that I am trying to divert attention away from Dan’s issue/s… you really give me too much credit don’t you??? I mean really now- Dan could censor me, cut me off, block me etc. But he doesn’t, and I very much doubt it is due to his ardor for free speech, although, agqain I could be wrong about that as well since I cannot read his mind. Although you seem convinced of your power to read mine. That is odd, don’t you think? Especially since you are wrong. I post here to add things here that would otherwise NEVER see the light of day. I like to challenge you Rightys, to see what you’re really thinking, or at least get some idea about that. You see, I have been mystified about the Right my whole life, and what it is that makes them tick. This has helped me to understand you all better. What I have found is honestly disturbing to me. I don’t say that to offend anyone, although you will focus on that I’m sure. I’m just being honest.
You see, it is my conclusion that there are at least (to break it down re: politics) two distinct ways the brain works in humans. There are many studies about it but I wanted to see for myself in this limited and very very non-empirical way, of course. I belie these two basic differences probably exist due to genetics and also simultaneously dominant right/left brain factor. Or it could just be genetics that causes the dominance of the right or left brain hemisphere. Either way, it is very difficult to alter that, especially in some people. The extremes, which of course include both sides. None of this is earth-shattering. I’m simply responding to your post above in an honest way. So,take it or leave it.
I have seen numerous times where you have made this claim of being open minded. Yet I have not see it. I have given you fact after fact backed up by independent sources (never using Rush or Fox) yet you still reject everything I say as wrong. I really have not seen anywhere on here where you have made an independent assertion about anything of substance. You have Plagiarized the crud out of ultra left wing articles on a regular basis. You hardly ever challenge me. It take only seconds to find the facts that refute your assertions. As everyone that reads this knows, as soon as you are cornered you will argue that we take your statements out of context.
Oh by the way…. I think Dan doesn’t cut you off because he gets a real chuckle from your posts. I know I sure do. And no I cant read your mind. You cut and post too much for me to get a read on what you are thinking. Having said that I will stretch it just a bit further. A blank book reveals nothing.
Oh don’t be mad at me. I am just in a crappy mood and reacting to you with less tolerance than usual.
Rob’s post is the most delusional I have seen. It’s all talking in circles with no substance nor clarity. Have no idea what he is saying other than he hates people that work for a living which in essence is money and like to save it instead of giving it to people like him. He’s an extreme left/left/left liberal with major chip on his shoulder. It will never change I assume? By the way, we can “read your mind” and it is severely lacking reality.
Thank you Paul for your “anti-delusional” interpretation on what you think it is I’m trying to say. Your “mind-reading” leaves much to be desired. To clarify what I meant by other thougths never seeing the light of day- I meant here on this site. Obviously they can be found many other places althogh mainly on the internet. The MSM is obviously mainly right-wing, although to you extremists it apparenlty doesn’t appear that way. Again- that is obvious, to me at least, a factor that involves how the brain functions. The really interesting and disturbing thing for me to accept is that because the difference in perceiving reality is brain based (I know, duh, right? But I mean more organically based vs. learned behavior) it is very difficult to alter that perception, at least for those who sit on the extreme ends of the poltical spectrum. In fact, for some, ie. folks like you, and perhaps like me, there is NOTHING that can alter it. No amount of logic, reasoning, factual evidence can change it. What that means then… if this is true, is that some people are nothing but robots, basically. It would follow then, that these people could be, rather easily, led by those who would use them for selfish and even evil reasons. I am aware that you folks here believe this to be true of me, not you. The only thing I would concede to you is that in that case we both (all) are serving the evil purposes of others. However, I maintain my take on reality is much more accurate than yours. What would be interesting to know is- could any of you read an entire book, for example, without letting your biases (brain function) get in the way. Could you remain (mostly) impartial throughout its reading and truly open-minded to its logic and reasoning. It appears that this might not be possible; thus my theorem. Luckily, I guess, for us all are the majority, the wishy-washy people who tend to go back and forth, depending upon multiple factors during their decision-making processes. Now speaking of majorities, here’s this:
Democracy: de-moc-ra-cy, government by the people; the common people of a community, as distinguished from any privileged class
According to the latest poll conducted by CBS “60 Minutes” and the magazine Vanity Fair, 61 percent of Americans want to raise taxes on the wealthy as the primary way to cut the budget. The same poll finds that the second most popular first choice for cutting the nation’s budget deficit, at 20 percent, is cutting the military budget. That is, 81 percent of us–four out of five–would cut the deficit by taxing the rich and/or slashing military spending.
Only four percent of those polled favored cutting Medicare, the government-run program that provides health care for the elderly and disabled, and only three percent favored cutting Social Security.
President Obama meanwhile, appointed a so-called National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform (quickly dubbed the “Catfood Commission” by critics) to come up with proposals to cut the budget deficit. He named as co-chairs former Republican Senator from Wyoming Alan Simpson, a troglodyte sworn enemy of Social Security who publicly declared it to be “a milk cow with 310 million tits,” and Erskine Bowles, a retired investment banker and former chief of staff to President Clinton who says he want to cut spending, not raise taxes, which, when it comes to Social Security, means lower benefits for retirees.
The writing on the wall appears to be that the White House, and Democrats and Republicans in Congress, are looking to raise the retirement age, currently 66, to 68 or 69, to reduce or at least limit the inflation adjustment in Social Security benefits, and perhaps also to increase the payroll tax on current workers. What they want to do is balance the budget by screwing with our retirement. What they don’t want to do is raise taxes on the rich and on investment income, two steps which, if taken, could fully fund Social Security indefinitely into the future.
Already, the president and Congress have agreed to extend tax breaks for the rich, even though the vast majority of the American public wants the rich to pay higher taxes.
A second poll, this time by CNN, reports that 63 percent of Americans oppose the US War in Afghanistan and want it ended. Only 35 percent say they support the war (now in its ninth year).
I want to ask you one question that I want you to answer correctly. Do not add any political spin to it just answer the the simple question.
Of all the taxes collected last year what percentage of it was collected from the top 2 tax brackets?
OOOO you are so smart. Get real Rob.
“The United States is the richest country with the most skewed income distribution, ” Eduardo Porter asserts in his upcoming book “The Price of Everything: Solving the Mystery of Why We Pay What We Do.”
Porter continues: “According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, the average earnings of the richest 10 percent of Americans are 16 times those for the 10 percent at the bottom of the pile. That compares with a multiple of 8 in Britain and 5 in Sweden. Not coincidentally, Americans are less economically mobile than people in other developed countries. There is a 42 percent chance that the son of an American man in the bottom fifth of the income distribution will be stuck in the same economic slot. The equivalent odds for a British man are 30 percent, and 25 percent for a Swede.”
For students of history and economics, this is shocking stuff. Europeans came to America in search of opportunity, for a better chance at a brighter future. How can it be that it’s easier to get ahead in Britain–famously ossified, rigidly class-defined Britain?
Yet it’s true. David Leonhardt of The New York Times writes: “Income inequality, by many measures, is now greater than it has been since the 1920s.”
According to Nicholas Kristof, also at the suddenly class-conscious Times, we live in a time of “polarizing inequality” during which “the wealthiest 1 percent of Americans possess a greater collective net worth than the bottom 90 percent.”
This, we are informed, is bad. Not just for us. Income inequality hurts everybody–including the rich.
Cornell economics professor Robert Frank notes the correlation between financial stress and social dislocation. “The counties with the biggest increases in inequality also reported the largest increases in divorce rates,” reports Frank. Children of divorce are more likely to become a societal burden, committing crimes against everyone, including the wealthy. Uh oh. Time to get into that gated community!
And your point is that everyone that has worked hard distribute their hard earned monies to you to distribute to make us all financially equal? I notice all the people that you quote are extreme liberals. Never changes. When will they donate their hard earned money voluntarily?
No that is not what I’m saying, or even what people like the above are saying. You know that what we are saying is that large corporations do not pay their fair share, and if they did YOU and I WOULD be paying less! Another “Duh” moment brought to you by Paul.
The top-earning 5 percent of taxpayers (AGI over $159,619), earned 34.7 percent of the nation’s adjusted gross income, but paid approximately 58.7 percent of federal individual income taxes. I am one of those people when you add my income with my wife’s. I am not complaining about it as much as I am telling you this. We are carrying the water for the rest of the country. If we Fail then the increased burden will be passed on to you. I know that sounds arrogant. I am sorry for that. However fact are facts.
I am not questioning the numbers you indicate above. I’m sure that is accurate. Once again, however, you and everyone else here misunderstands what it is I am saying. IN FACT, what I wish would occur to taxes would LOWER your burden. You see, what the wealthy elite have done (and do everywhere else too, for the most part) is create class war. They have the vast majority of people fighting amongst themselves/ourselves. It’s the oldest trick in the book… because it works. In the past it has worked until a revolution occurred. But in modern times it is much more difficult and even more deadly potentially. What I would HOPE is that we, the middle class, wouldn’t be fighting each other when that time comes, or ever for that mqatter. Becuase if it comes down to that it would be very sad, because we are NOT each other’s enemy. And to be fooled otherwise would be devastating to all, except the wealthy elite. They would win again. In summary- IT IS NOT LIBERALS OR THE LEFT WHO ARE WAGING CLASS WAR.
“It is not liberals or the left who are waging class war.” Really? Rob, it is people like you that are waging the war. To this day I cannot understand why a person such as you will not put as much energy into a venture with blood, sweat and tears as you do this site. I sincerely believe that if you did you would never post again, you would be able to quit all your jobs. Think about it for once in your natural born life. That said, doubt you will take the challenge/opportunity that built our republic. Hope you prove me wrong.
OMG- you are simple. And blinded by biases.
Ok, then hire me at a wage similar to what passed as sufficient in the 50’s, 60s, 70’s for a one breadwinner with a family to support in similar manner. I’d say about $100,000 is about right. Can you do that? Anyone reading this, will you do that for me?? I’d even settle for $80K, and try that to see how it works for me.
I will hire you are you willing to move to the south. If have at least a BA or BS degree and have experience that I can use I might be able to get you 85K. We make protective equipment for our troops and need a new tester…… are last one had a work place accident.
Oh ho ho! So funny! ha ha ha… gee that wasn’t threatening or violent sounding at all… why does the Liberal Media protray you guys that way so much!!?? It’s just not fair!
You made my point “Will you do that for me?” I meant you start a business and run it with as much conviction as you show here. I, as well as others on this site started a business with limited resources or nothing, worked hard and make a living. You want a guaranteed salary? Work for the government. You are the epitemy of the new entitlement society that if not corrected will be the downfall of our economy. Sadly it has begun. Hopefully not a snowball gaining steam.
I was challenging you, that’s all. Why? Because thru my own tireless efforts I cannot provide for my family the basic lifestyle my Dad did, on his own. That’s all my point was/is. That and what it would take to match my experience growing up. That’s all. And yet you have to persist in attacking a hard working tax-paying American such as myself. Why is that?! And again- I am not creating the class war. People like me are reacting to it and also identifying the perpetrators of the class-war. Intelligently and correctly. You disagree with our assessment of 1. the situation and 2. who is to blame. But please stop attackingyour fellow American who probably works just as much and as hard as you do. Stop being so arrogant and hateful. And don’t call me hateful just for having a brain, using it, and then using that to point out what is wrong and why it is wrong. I am not an “entitlement” user (yet), at least not per your definiton of what that seems to be. So stop making up stuff to make yourself appear insightful or superior. It does neither.
My father fed and clothed 7 children in the 50’s-60’s and could hardly make ends meet. You seem to think that your families lifestyle should be replicated as Your Fathers? Your father earned X dollars so you should earn same? That in itself is insane. YOU, not your father dictate how much you earn by hard work on your end, unless that is, you are a Trust Baby that I am not! Don’t insult us with your constant whining about your previous lifestyle lacking at present. Suggest that you look for another job or opportunity as I said before? You seem like a knowledgeable fellow, try it. All you can do is fail. That’s the problem today, to many people that fear failure. That, my friend is life. Quit fighting it and join it.
I dictate what I earn? That is insane. I work almost everyday. I do not get to decide what I get paid. I also have no control over inflation, the strength of the dollar, or lack of, or any other economic REALITY. And I am not a trust baby… I only wish I was. Because of your hate, biases, and other reasons I cannot comprehend, you choose to combat and berate a simple statement, and the frustration it creates, regarding the reality of our times. Why is that? Why do you cling to some kind of philosophy/fantasy that doesn’t really exist? You even voice your own frustrations, even though you seem to have a pretty good hold on the American Dream, and yet you can’t wait to berate others who don’t have even that much? Why can’t you help look for solutions with people like me instead of fighting us like we are some kind of enemy. We are not the enemy, we are as American as you. I came from a white middle class family. And as I’ve said before I did everything my country told me to do, except for joining the damned Armed forces. But even if I had been guiled into that they would have let me down too, even more so probably. We are all being short-changed big-time. And it isn’t for some paranoid one-world communist government. It is for GREED, for the upper 1-2% wealthy elite. And they mostly depend on war for their profits (not all, just most) Plain and simple. And sad. And evil. Very evil.
Rob, It seems that you will never understand. It is called self preservation of one’s self and protecting family. You, as others from your generation have never gone through what your grandfather, father etc. You seem to look for the “Gold at the end of the Rainbow” without commitment. Yes, I understand that you have multiple jobs. So did I when I was young like you. The question is, Do you have a real job that you are commited to make a better life for your family, or are you blindly just working to exist? That is the difference. No risk for your beliefs, no reward. Think about it for once.
I understand what you are saying Paul. It is you who refuses to see things from my point of view. And if you could you would then understand many other things as well. What you seem to lack is empathy for those other than those closest to you physically and/or philosophically. That is the difference, I believe, between peoples that causes much strife. Yes, we all need to protect our own. That is a given. But didn’t Jesus, for just one example, teach something more than that? I beleive so.
All I can say is someday you will understand. It is apparent that you have yet to do so. You will.
I think I understand the basic teachings of Jesus. Do you? I’m not saying you have to abide by them or even believe in them, but do you think you understand His teachings? If you say you do, then please add just one of them, just for the sake of discussion.
Typical Alinsky tactic. Very good I must say. I will keep my beliefs as a confirmed Lutheran to myself.
My my my. No direct answer from Paul. Shocking…not. Who is using Alinsky tactics? I was using the Socratic method. Just sayin’. Very lame Paul.
Yes, I’m lame today. 18 holes of golf. Birdied the 18th.
Poor beleagured right-wing Paul. No wonder he is so angry. He only birdied one hole…
Such a workaholic too. A slave practically. Poor guy.
A man must take a break once in 14 days. First Birdie of my life. I’m a hacker.
What do you really do for a living? Curious.
Find people that don’t want to be found and hide in caves or any other vessel they deem necessary until my staff and I find them and then our pursuit begins. No, I don’t know where Bin Laden is. If so, I would be a rich man. You asked, I answered.
You answered? Really? Ok. As much as you do… or can. Sounds very clandestine and intriguing. Or are you just living in a fantasy-Gumpian world all your own? If you’re out there looking for tax cheats I’d be the first to chant your praises. Or are you a regular bounty hunter? That would be ok I guess, but not as good as rooting out dirty tax cheats. I hate tax cheats, yes i do! Even more than I hate Bin Laden. (P.S. Paul- he’s dead…)